Proper landing technique Jabiru J230

[Jabiru7252]

Hi to all, I live in Central California and recently purchased a Jabiru J230. I am hoping someone can give me a few tips on proper landing technique for the airplane. It seem like on almost every landing the nose wants to wander back and forth....I am at 68-70 kts on short final to landing, with full flaps. I am having a very difficult time keeping the nose on the centerline just before touchdown. It seems to really move around about 6-8 feet above the runway surface. Have about 18 hours in the plane now with about 25 landings. Trying to stay light on the rudder pedals but seems that plane will not stay straight and wanders almost every time. Had several ballooned landings and also quite a few where the plane is at a pretty severe angle to the centerline (tough on landing gear & tires). Just hoping that someone can give me a few tips on what may be the problem. Controls are very mushy at and just before touchdown...Any help or advice is appreciated. Hope I can participate in the forum often.

 

Thanks,

 

Craig

How does your Jab compare to another? Has another Jab pilot flown your plane and got the same experience? It may be that the plane is at fault and not you. Is the ASI reading right?

 

 

[nong]

G'day Fresno.

 

Please don't be offended by the following.

 

It is pretty clear that you need more training. Some of the things you said, indicate that your theory knowledge is weak.

 

Rather than wreck the aeroplane, it would be a good idea to ask an old hand instructor, one with experience in this class of machine, to give you a full briefing on the final approach and landing phase.

 

If you can gain a deep understanding of the process, it will lead to consistent safe landings and an ability to accurately self critique.

 

Twenty five dodgy landings in eighteen hours is a red light! You need to tackle this now!

 

A couple of hours intense landing practice, with your instructor, will do wonders for your skills.

 

I suggest you make a point of getting out in a gusty cross wind, with your instructor.

 

The instructor you choose for this job, should not be the one who taught you to fly.

 

Should be a lot of fun!

 

Good luck.

 

Fred

 

 

[Camel]

G'day Fresno.Please don't be offended by the following.

It is pretty clear that you need more training. Some of the things you said, indicate that your theory knowledge is weak.

 

Rather than wreck the aeroplane, it would be a good idea to ask an old hand instructor, one with experience in this class of machine, to give you a full briefing on the final approach and landing phase.

 

If you can gain a deep understanding of the process, it will lead to consistent safe landings and an ability to accurately self critique.

 

Twenty five dodgy landings in eighteen hours is a red light! You need to tackle this now!

 

A couple of hours intense landing practice, with your instructor, will do wonders for your skills.

 

I suggest you make a point of getting out in a gusty cross wind, with your instructor.

 

The instructor you choose for this job, should not be the one who taught you to fly.

 

Should be a lot of fun!

 

Good luck.

 

Fred

Well put Nong, I believe you are correct and every lesson whether good or bad is more knowledge and an experience you may not have done on your own. I have been with instructors that I have been glad to get out of the plane but they taught me something, every lesson is a bonus and using different instructors is also good. I have had instructors going off for the way I was taught to do things, now I just ask how do you want me to do it then do it their way and at the end decide what's the better way. I have been called a "woss" for being too cautious but some of those people have met with accidents and are no longer around, their mistakes were simple but they ignored the risk, or should I say took too many risks !

 

 

[jetjr]

More practice

 

I had trouble similar, all sorted when I gave up using second stage flap

 

Aircraft flies like a heavier one, more decisive, and yes lands faster but once you have it sorted can start using second stage again

 

I was alos taught to go to idle speed on turning cross, trim right back, aircaft sorts itsself out speedwise and you land essentailly the same as without engine. A great skill if ever the time does come

 

Means you need to place yourself well in the cross and final stages

 

 

[frank marriott]

More practiceI had trouble similar, all sorted when I gave up using second stage flap

Aircraft flies like a heavier one, more decisive, and yes lands faster but once you have it sorted can start using second stage again

 

I was alos taught to go to idle speed on turning cross, trim right back, aircaft sorts itsself out speedwise and you land essentailly the same as without engine. A great skill if ever the time does come

 

Means you need to place yourself well in the cross and final stages

The "cross" you are referring to, is that Xwind or base?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

all depends on whether you fly tight circuits or if you need a cut lunch.....there is no one answer suits everything, but I personally try not to fly flat final approaches...for them to work you need extra speed or extra revs... Both of which have their own set of problems....in jabs holding too much speed when you want to flair will simply mean you float and float and.......extra revs is fine while the engine is serviceable.....ditch inspection on the cards if it faulters.

 

Of course flat is all relative, if your last beast was a draggy rag and tubes thing then even a steep approach in a jab will likely seem flat...

 

 

[Camel]

Quote. ....I am at 68-70 kts on short final to landing, with full flaps. I am having a very difficult time keeping the nose on the centerline just before touchdown.

 

Fresno jab, At this point are you moving ailerons or just holding the flare ? The reason I ask is the J230 suffers Adverse Yaw so if you are moving ailerons around side to side the nose will go side to side. The best method is hold aileron to suit wind condition and use rudder for direction control and flare to reduce speed and touch mains first.

 

Many GA pilot forget the Adverse Yaw and get comfortable on the footrests, there is plenty about adverse yaw and well worth a read, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_yaw.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Particularly when used to a Cherokee, which I was.

 

 

[jetjr]

The "cross" you are referring to, is that Xwind or base?

Would be on base, otherwise you unlikely to make it to the strip id have thought

 

 

[frank marriott]

No worries, just the term has me wondering .

 

 

[SDQDI]

No worries, just the term has me wondering .

You worry to much Frank, 'cross' definitely refers to base, if he had meant crosswind he would have called it 'criss' so the easiest way to remember which is what is to remember 'criss cross' and remember you generally fly crosswind (cris) before base (cross)

 

 

[ben87r]

Cant wait for the day that i'm doing a straight in approach at 5nm and someone calls turning "cross" and I think that they are "crissing" because they called "cross" for me to then find out quickly they are on BASE!

 

 

[SDQDI]

Yes I agree Ben, my last post was just a little tongue in cheek, I was surprised at jets use of the terminology. Calling 'base' cross would certainly be a recipe for disaster.

 

 

[Russ]

called and joined circuit for downwind runway*** then radio cackles chap calls downwind same runway, all clear in front of me, so i assumed he was behind. I call and turn base, then turn finals.....bugger me he's under me also on finals......maaate, what are you doing.... he responds .....he's downwind, maaate, you are on finals, no he says, he's downwind of the runway.

 

 

[biggles]

called and joined circuit for downwind runway*** then radio cackles chap calls downwind same runway, all clear in front of me, so i assumed he was behind. I call and turn base, then turn finals.....bugger me he's under me also on finals......maaate, what are you doing.... he responds .....he's downwind, maaate, you are on finals, no he says, he's downwind of the runway.

Oh dear ! ..... Bob

 

 

[jetjr]

We are talking on a forum, not in circut.........somewhat safer if you use the wrong phraseology here

 

Full apologies

 

 

[biggles]

We are talking on a forum, not in circut.........somewhat safer if you use the wrong phraseology hereFull apologies

Many newbies on this forum Teck , they don't need to be further confused ...... Bob

 

 

[biggles]

Correction to the above .... Insert ' Jetjr '...... Bob

 

 

[turboplanner]

You worry to much Frank, 'cross' definitely refers to base, if he had meant crosswind he would have called it 'criss' so the easiest way to remember which is what is to remember 'criss cross' and remember you generally fly crosswind (cris) before base (cross)

All very amusing, and I expect at Quirindi I could fly the circuit reciting parts of the Lord's prayer and not cause any problems.

 

However, once traffic starts to get above six in the circuit, aircraft if differing speeds are inclined to bunch up at times, and not all aircraft radios will be working at their specification level, so radio will start to become important, and working out what someone else said, or meant, can be very important to avoid an accident.

 

If you then step up to a City airfield with perhaps 12 in the circuit proficient use of the radio and radio terms becomes critical. There's no time to try to figure out what someone somewhere means by "Cross".

 

The positions were hammered out in blood, "Crosswind" after you make your first turn after final, "Downwind" after you make your second turn, "Base" after you make your third turn, and "final" after you make the fourth turn. The tower controller will call, for example "Aircraft on Crosswind break right!", and you may have a fraction of a second to avoid a collision, or even in a quiet circuit you might need to make the same call one day, and the pilot will need to know immediately that you mean him and not someone on Base.

 

There is another reason for correct radio terminology, and that is that although someone's transmitter may be on the way out or your receiver is scratchy, you can still get some idea where the other aircraft is by the syllables.

 

 

[SDQDI]

All very amusing, and I expect at Quirindi I could fly the circuit reciting parts of the Lord's prayer and not cause any problems.However, once traffic starts to get above six in the circuit, aircraft if differing speeds are inclined to bunch up at times, and not all aircraft radios will be working at their specification level, so radio will start to become important, and working out what someone else said, or meant, can be very important to avoid an accident.

 

If you then step up to a City airfield with perhaps 12 in the circuit proficient use of the radio and radio terms becomes critical. There's no time to try to figure out what someone somewhere means by "Cross".

 

The positions were hammered out in blood, "Crosswind" after you make your first turn after final, "Downwind" after you make your second turn, "Base" after you make your third turn, and "final" after you make the fourth turn. The tower controller will call, for example "Aircraft on Crosswind break right!", and you may have a fraction of a second to avoid a collision, or even in a quiet circuit you might need to make the same call one day, and the pilot will need to know immediately that you mean him and not someone on Base.

 

There is another reason for correct radio terminology, and that is that although someone's transmitter may be on the way out or your receiver is scratchy, you can still get some idea where the other aircraft is by the syllables.

If I hear anyone reciting ANY prayers while flying a circuit I am sure my nervousness levels will be going through the roof:yikes: (I have nothing against praying and do so myself but there is a time and place which I don't think includes the circuit area, anyone finding the need during circuit practice IMHO needs a better instructor or student)

My post was totally tongue in cheek TP and was obviously referring to jets slack use of terminology in an earlier post. I should have clarified that in that post but in my defence I did a few posts later.

 

I am fully aware of the importance of correct radio procedures and like to think my radio use is mostly proper. (I've slipped up a time or two but I am only human)

 

Ps why do people always think that because I fly a slow plane and come from YQDI that I am of a lower than normal intelligence!(Not aimed at you TP just a general observation:dizzy:) Not that it worries me I almost never dwell on it.......... Except sometimes....... Well maybe more often.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You are a wheat cockey aren't you?

 

 

[SDQDI]

'Cocky' But not just wheat, we mainly grow summer crops like sorghum, cotton, corn and soybeans.

 

Incidently (not sure how to spell it if it is a word) cockey is a sport invented by some Canadian girls combining croquet (spelling) and hockey (maybe ice hockey I can't really remember)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Having just traveled north from Adelaide to Port Augusta and south again out into the wheat country north of Kapunda, I need to be more careful judging wheat cprofessionals.

 

Thousands of square kilometres with not a single furrow even slightly bent - artwork on a massive scale, but then I started checking the corners. They all use dual tyred four wheel tractors and wide seeders, yet were seeding right up to the fences only leaving a very small headland!

 

While I mentioned Quirindi, I was thinking about a quiet country strip with one in the circuit.

 

I've slipped up more than a time or two, but my point was that the terminology has good reason to be there.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Alas GPS has taken a lot of the skill out of farming, gone are the days when we could impress people with our straight freehand driving now anyone can do it and dare I say straighter than our straightest freehand.

 

YQDI is generally quiet except after 8:15 am (that's about when the bae trainers get down here generally a few at a time) actually their track often takes them over home (regularly at 500 FT) so even taking off from home I try and do good radio calls which is generally ' hornet 8367 3 miles to the north taking off from a property for blah blah blah', I am sometimes a little slack doing a post landing at home call (how would that be best worded? A clear of all runways would be silly, I have made various versions of 'hornet 8367 on the ground and finished for the day' but haven't found wording that I am completely happy with.) after all I don't want someone to half hear that I've landed at a property and mistakenly think it is an emergency!

 

Other than the bae trainers we have a busy day every second Saturday of a month with the locals getting together to chin wag and go for the odd sortie, no major traffic jams though:blush:. Ps anyone planning a fly on a second Saturday of the month in our area let us know and take the chance to meet some 'interesting' locals:thumb up:

 

Finally, don't take too much notice of any of my 'poor dumb me' whines......... They are often put on to make others feel bad, I am rarely offended by being corrected and mostly appreciate the fact that some people care enough to think the correction is worth while:wave:

 

 

[AVOCET]

I use and encourage a 10 mile inbound call to druid vale ( private strip ) , and then a downwind call ,

 

On 127.7 , at least any one listening in will know you've made it to the circuit .

 

Mike