recflyer Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoiC1TV6OCg I believe this is an Alpha 160 from Red Baron used in this clip. http://www.redbaron.com.au/aircraft 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scre80 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I got to do something similar in a glider at my club, called stalls and spin recoveries. Well worth it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Very nice. I remember having no troubles at all recovering from an incipient spin, but somehow I doubt that I could make myself go into one - that takes guts!! (assuming its on purpose and not inadvertent, in which case it takes lack of attention) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rastus Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Hmmmm. Not too sure about the location of the exercise. Whatever happened to making sure all clear below before entering a spin They certainly can't guarantee there isn't another aeroplane lurking in among those clouds. Also, that certainly wasn't anything like a standard spin recovery. I realize it was an exercise, but that technique will definitely not unspin quite a few types. I've never flown one, but I understand that a Chipmunk will not stop rotating until the pole is well forward. My gliding club has just bought a new ASK 21 and that will certainly misbehave during the recovery if the classic 'Full opposite rudder - Pause - Stick smoothly forward until the rotation stops' process is not followed. That is according to the US Air Force test pilots who did some serious spin testing after an accident at least. Mind you, the bl#^!y thing won't spin unless you bolt a dirty big lump of lead on the tail! The dear old Blanik would happily keep spinning and sometimes even reverse direction, if you kept the stick back after applying opposite rudder. Shortwing Kookaburras can be spun and recovered with your feet off the rudder pedals. Slow turn, when the wing stars to drop apply full opposite aileron and back stick and she will enter a beautiful spin. Recover by putting in full in-spin aileron and easing the stick forward. No rudder input necessary. But then Kookas are lovably eccentric. I'd be surprised if the classic recovery wouldn't work in just about anything. Best to avoid unintentional spinning in the first place, but you should still know how to get your particular beast out of one. Don't find yourself in a skidding turn at low speed, keep the ball (or yaw string) in the middle and the speed at the proper value and she'll be apples. Sorry, can't help myself. Bloody instructors! May all your landings be as soft as a butterfly with sore feet. Robert 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Hmmmm. Not too sure about the location of the exercise. Whatever happened to making sure all clear below before entering a spin and the speed at the proper value and she'll be apples. Maybe VFR doesnt apply.....(sorry sally, JK) Whats the proper value that ensures we cant stall?... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 keep the ball (or yaw string) in the middle and the speed at the proper value whats speed got to do with it ? and how does anyone know what checks happened before the spin exercise? how do you know it wasnt inside a dedicated aerobatic box of airspace? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Maybe VFR doesnt apply.....(sorry sally, JK)Whats the proper value that ensures we cant stall?... Angle of attack. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Angle of attack. Staying on the ground 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 These guys used to do their spin training just near The Oaks airfield (my home club and field). It was interesting to watch the recoveries, just as demonstrated, by using rudder only. Actually a bit of a concern as the aircraft would be in a stable spin, then the rotation would slow and the aircraft would pitch down into a vertical dive with some of the residual yawing motion converted to a rolling motion, giving the appearance of an uncontrolled spiral. Many recoveries looked to be very close to VNE... The Robin 2160 (now known as the Alpha 160) is noted for it's large rudder, which will tend to 'blow over' in a spin, thereby maintaining rotation. However, the 'hands off' spin is a bit of a worry as it shows that the all flying tail has little tendency to recover extreme pitching events? Still, a good little aerobatic trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 In a powered aeroplane, the first two actions to a spin recovery should be to close the throttle and centralise the ailerons, then you can identify the direction of rotation etc... The positive side to the hands off technique allows the ailerons to centralise themselves. Having trained spin recovery over many years, I like to enter a spin from a climbing, unbalanced turn or mishandled stall turn. It never ceases to amaze me at the number of people who jump in on opposite rudder and forward stick (irrespective of an upright or inverted spin!) leaving large outspin aileron input and a high power setting. This is particularly the case of licenced pilots completing tailwheel / aerobatic training, highlighting the negative training value of incipient spin training adopting a wings level / power off entry. Too many instructors are scared of stall / spin training as the result of their poor training and the lack of suitable training aircraft. Rant over.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 The stall entry and recovery we teach is too prescriptive and predictable and loses far too much height. We don't have the right aircraft to do it safely either.. This has become a big deal and it shouldn't be. When EVERYBODY did it it was ho hum. A few never liked it which is understandable. There is so much written about spin recovery, and I suspect IT is being dumbed down too. Most aircraft spin differently and some require a different technique to others. Having a one recovery that suits all may be a way of dealing with it that ticks the boxes for some. The quicker you recover will aid the outcome as the developed spin is often harder to exit. You MUST identify the situation you are in before you can start a recovery. Neutralise everthing and close throttle Which way are you going? Turn needle. If none visual reference only. Spin or SPIRAL? Airspeed rising with spiral. They have distinctively different recovery and consequences of mishandling. A spin will rarely damage the plane. Incorrect recovery can and it can eventually hit the ground if you leave it too long. A spiral requires quick action to prevent overstress of the airframe. Power off, wings level (with aileron as they are working) and carefully pull out from the dive. Note no rudder required or desired. The two situations are often confused. That could be the difference between success and failure. Nev 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 .. The positive side to the hands off technique allows the ailerons to centralise themselves. ...Rant over.... In one type I fly, the hands off technique will move the ailerons inspin initially, just where it is best at that time. Another type, if the stick is back with outspin aileron then upon releasing the stick etc the stick will remain there and it will happily continue spinning. Other types differ again, as Nev said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Outspin aileron helps you get into a spin quicker ( unless it has frise ailerons) so it will no doubt help you to stay in one. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 ...We don't have the right aircraft to do it safely either.. But we do. e.g. the Robin in this video, Cessna 150/152, Citabria, Decathlon, Pitts ..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I use "WE" as RAAus and all my training comments refer to that as well. The last you mention has the strength I crave. The point I wish to make is identify the situation you are in. That should be emphasised to the student. Essential in IMC too. In reality you wont be doing an intentional ANYTHING. The people who go in on turnback just wanted to turn back, or the ones that went through the centreline turning final don't wish to stall and spin.. In the last example IF they get into it they aren't likely to get out of it at that height. It would be possible to teach it I do believe, but we can talk about that over a glass of red. Nev. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Even if RAAus had the right aeroplane we are prohibited in using them for aerobatics/spinning so it's a moot point. As was said above, there are plenty of the right aircraft available and in my opinion pilots should experience spinning and recovery. As to different recovery techniques, well, as we can't spin ours it is difficult to tell, but most factory built aircraf have a technique for inadvertant spin recovery in the POH. I haven't spun an aircraft that doesn't recover using the P.A.R.E method. Also remember getting into a spin inadvertantly is going to be a very, very different situation to doing it deliberately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 The key to spin training for non aerobatic pilots is to recognise the situation developing and avoid spinning. Recovery from a spin in a turn onto final will most likely be final! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 .... I haven't spun an aircraft that doesn't recover using the P.A.R.E method. .... There are a couple around that don't (not within FAR 23 requirements anyway). And PARE as described for one type may give a nasty surprise on another type which has a different description, specifically the "E". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 In the UK some of our types get spun during the certification process. (Though obviously not normally approved for it.) Here is a video of a recent flight test of an updated version of the Skyranger Swift: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 A commentary plus some representation of control positions is desired. I think the Eurofox is a nice bit of kit. Some of these aircraft might easily exceed design speeds in the recovery. Speed plus "G" loads with some wing sections are a bad combination.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Yes, and I suggested to the Flylight video person that an extended documentary on how a typical certification test program works in the UK - if they could manage it - would interest many of us. As to the control positions - at least in the Eurofox clip - you can almost see (and hear) all that's going on. In these cosy wee cockpits the knees must needs betray what the feet are up to. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I use "WE" as RAAus and all my training comments refer to that as well. I never refer to RAA. .... but we can talk about that over a glass of red. Nev. I'm always happy to discuss spinning over a glass or two of red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsam Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 A commentary plus some representation of control positions is desired.I think the Eurofox is a nice bit of kit. Some of these aircraft might easily exceed design speeds in the recovery. Speed plus "G" loads with some wing sections are a bad combination.. Nev As a Eurofox owner I find viewing such videos reassuring, knowing how well they recover from a spin. I must say from personal experience that this aircraft has no nasty or surprising characteristics. Stalls, and stalls in turns (with or without flaperons extended) remain gentle, predictable, and quickly recoverable. Everything remains well "telegraphed" to the pilot, and controllability is ample at even the slowest speeds. In fact it is hard for me to imagine being so hamfisted at the controls to ever find myself in a spin I didn't try hard to achieve. The fact that the flaperons are "hanging" below the chord, and operate differentially mean there is minimal adverse yaw, but ample authority. Inherent safe and thoughtful design that suits me very well, I must say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 still none were in a fully developed, stabilised spin of no more than 3 turns, some 2 turns, most 1.5 or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I'm always happy to discuss spinning over a glass or two of red. Hmm, could you pour your own red and tell us about inverted spin recovery? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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