Info on Foxbat sought

[Guest SrPilot]

If you own, have owned, or have even flown a Foxbat, I would like info on your experience with and assessment of the airplane. I am interested in both flying and maintenance info. According to the U.S. FAA database, there are only 10 Foxbats in the U.S.A., and at least one of them is listed as non-operational. Three of the nearest aircraft are on floats, so I have to gather info from afar. Last time I was in Australia, instead of an out-and-back, I just did an around the world flight. It wasn't that much further and the airfare was right. Thus, I truly am seeking info from afar. Thanks! SrPilot

 

 

[fly_tornado]

buy the kitfox, they sold 3000 of them.

 

 

[TezzaP]

Firstly, welcome to the forum. I have a gliding background and have only had one power lesson in a Foxbat so I'm no expert.

 

In short I was very impressed with the climb rate two up, coordination of the controls good and well weighted, steep turns, stalls and side slips were uneventful. A glide approach on landing was very controllable in about 15 knots with about 5 knots crosswind component. I found the glide ratio much better than I anticipated.

 

A lovely aircraft to learn on and I daresay own, with great visibility. Over to the experts.

 

Terry

 

 

[facthunter]

There's another thread already going, might be better to link to. Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

You were asking about the tundra tyres. Here's a pic. Don't get the impression they're massive, but I recon perfect for the aircraft size.

 

Use the search function on this forum. Many threads about the Foxbat.

 

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

There's another thread already going, might be better to link to. Nev

Thanks. Where might that other thread be? The problem with being a newbie is learning to navigate effectively. But I'll learn. Maybe.

 

 

[facthunter]

Foxbat Tundra Tyres....... Hows the steering on the CJ6? Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

http://www.recreationalflying.com/search/2608598/?q=foxbat&t=post&o=relevance&c[title_only]=1

 

Have fun!

 

 

[Geoff13]

SrPilot

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

The foxbat is a wonderful little 2 seat LSA airplane.

 

The A22LS comes in at around 320 to 330 kgs empty and an mtow of 600 kgs.

 

It can carry 112 litres of fuel with the long range tanks.

 

With 2 people on board and full tanks, so within 20-30 kgs of maximum takeoff weight it can easily be of the ground in less than 200 metres, and that is with my limited ability.

 

I have flown 3 different A22LS's and find they climb at or near mtow at 800-1000 ft per minute at sea level on a comfortable day.

 

Cruise varies between the three that I have flown depending I assume on prop settings but between 80 and 90 knots IAS.

 

Endurance at mtow is in the vicinity of 4 to 4.5 hours leaving a safe reserve.

 

They are capable in experienced hands of getting into very short strips, but with my current experience I would not want to go into something to short.

 

I learned to fly in the Foxbat and now over 12 months have a bit over 100 hours on type. It may be time for me to consider some lessons in STOL in her but at the moment I am comfortable with 500 metres.

 

Maintenance is fairly basic in that it is a simple construction and sports a well proven and fairly simple engine.

 

They can tend to get a bit uncomfortable after a couple of hours and you are looking for somewhere to stop and stretch the legs.

 

The view is brilliant. I am 183 cms and fit into the aircraft quite comfortably without having to duck to see out.

 

Personally I love the Foxbat but have not bought one, I went for an X-Air-H. Only because I have not flown enough different types of plane yet to commit $100,000 to one type.

 

Would I recommend one to anyone? Yes if you are looking for a highwing 2 seater for local flying or getting in and out of short strips, I certainly would.

 

Would I suggest someone learn to fly in one? Yes I would but only if there isn't a Drifter around for you to learn in.

 

Having learned in the Foxbat and then gone onto the Drifter, I would actually recommend going the other way. I have lots of reasons for that but that is not what this thread is about.

 

 

[Guest JeffC]

If you own, have owned, or have even flown a Foxbat, I would like info on your experience with and assessment of the airplane. I am interested in both flying and maintenance info. According to the U.S. FAA database, there are only 10 Foxbats in the U.S.A., and at least one of them is listed as non-operational. Three of the nearest aircraft are on floats, so I have to gather info from afar. Last time I was in Australia, instead of an out-and-back, I just did an around the world flight. It wasn't that much further and the airfare was right. Thus, I truly am seeking info from afar. Thanks! SrPilot

In the U.S. the Foxbat is called the A22 Valor

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I have seen a number of foxbats on the east coast that seem to have something happening around the rivets. If you look at the leading edge of the main wings rivers on one that been on the coast and in service for a bunch of years it looks to me like there is that white powder forming under the paint just around the rivet head. I've seen it on at least 4 aircraft, but hasten to add I'm not an airframe expert so am not qualified to say there is an issue..,just that I wonder if there is?

 

Andy

 

 

[dazza 38]

I have seen a number of foxbats on the east coast that seem to have something happening around the rivets. If you look at the leading edge of the main wings rivers on one that been on the coast and in service for a bunch of years it looks to me like there is that white powder forming under the paint just around the rivet head. I've seen it on at least 4 aircraft, but hasten to add I'm not an airframe expert so am not qualified to say there is an issue..,just that I wonder if there is?Andy

The white powder is Aluminium hydroxide.

 

 

[Guest alky1957]

I have been flying a Foxbat for the last 18 months. They are stable, easy to fly aircraft and absolutely fantastic for sightseeing as the door glass goes all the way to the floor. They are very forgiving for low time pilots and students and in the right hands can takeoff and land in extremely short distances. I'm 6'2" (188cm) and I fit okay with plenty of headroom. However, I only fly a max of 90 mins at a time due to the restricted leg room for someone of my height. I need to stretch my legs after a while. There is very limited movement on the seat and the rudder pedals are fixed. For the average height pilots this works out fine. Its just the tall ones who may have a problem. Due to the use of flaperons the plane has different landinging attitudes dependent upon the level of flaps used. Excellent slow flight characteristics too

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

In the U.S. the Foxbat is called the A22 Valor

Thanks Jeff. I had seen the name "Valor" in some dated materials and videos. Your response set me in research mode.

 

It is true that the A22 was / is(?) called the Valor in the US, but my research brings into question whether the name Valor applies to the A-22LS. When I researched "Valor" on the FAA (US) Aircraft Registry, I found 23 registrations (for which I am grateful to you for the heads-up). But 21 of those are A-22, not A-22LS aircraft. I am told that there are significant differences in the A-22 and the A-22LS, including hardware and landing gear changes.

 

20 of the 21 "Valor" registrations are listed as manufactured (US spelling) by FPNA (Float Planes and Amphibs LLC) so for now I presume they were licensed under former licensing rules. The most recent of the registrations - two in number - do show the airplanes as "Aeroprakt-22-LS Valor." Another Valor is listed as a kitbuilt (A-22) airplane. Of those 23 Valors, 21 were registered between 2007-2010. The two 22LS Valors were registered in 2011-2012.

 

The 10 "Foxbats" that I had previously found actually are listed only as "A-22LS," with neither a "Foxbat" nor a "Valor" name included. Those are later registrations, presumably under the current licensing protocols. I have looked diligently for a current usage of "Valor" and find only "A-22LS". The "factory agent" for Aeroprakt in the US is known as Aeroprakt America, As of today, its website banner says "AeroPrakt America Inc. / A-22 LS Factory Agent" and both of their airplanes are registered only as "Aeroprakt A22LS." Their current web presence does not use the name Valor, and an old website for them used "Foxbat." Wikipedia, though, does say the the Foxbat is known in the US as the Valor. When I spoke to the agent at Aeroprakt America last week, I used Foxbat in the conversation and no one corrected me. Go figure.

 

Thanks so much for pointing me to the "Valor" listings, 21 of which are A22, not A22LS. Only 2 A22LSs are listed that way, the most recent of which was 3 years ago. Methinks I need to just shift to "A-22LS" as the aircraft to which I refer except when I am speaking with the rest of the world; then we are back to "Foxbats."

 

Net result of research to date on US registrations of A-22/A-22LS aircraft:

 

A-22 21 each, of which 1 was a kit-built (which we refer to as "homebuilt" or "experimental" but today is officially called ELSA if licensed as a Light Sport

 

A-22LS 2 each registered in 2011 (1) and 2012 (1) as "Aeroprakt=22-LS Valor" and 10 registered over the following years as "A-22LS" with Aeroprakt listed as manufacturer. These use neither the Foxbat nor the Valor name.

 

Two or three of these aircraft no longer are listed as "current." I believe two amphibs ended up in lakes (as opposed on ON lakes) but I cannot locate my notes on those two.

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

Foxbat Tundra Tyres....... Hows the steering on the CJ6? Nev

Fine, once you get used to it. The brakes operate from a handbrake mounted on the control stick much like the y-yoke Foxbats, but the rudder pedals play into the operation. Squeeze the handle, the plane stops; press a rudder pedal and squeeze the handle and the plane turns in that direction because only that brake will engage. The brakes are pneumatically operated so I can go across a ramp using my breaks with a lot of "whishing" noises. It usually grabs spectators' attention - both the plane and the swishing. Cessna drivers probably will run over a few things (hangars, automobiles, pedestrians, etc) until they get used to the handbrake operation. There are no toe-brakes. The CJ is heavy and tends to build speed during taxi (throttle creep), so it is best to keep one hand on the throttle and the other on the brake lever. Taxi speed control and situational awareness is important even when taxiing. Easy plane to fly though; just do not expect to approach the field at 40kts. I use 90kts in the pattern and land a mite faster than Foxbat pilots prefer.

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

I have seen a number of foxbats on the east coast that seem to have something happening around the rivets. . . . white powder forming under the paint just around the rivet head.

This is commonly the case in the US with aircraft from coastal areas. There are treatments available, both for use during the building phase and for post-problem maintenance. When I built my GlaStar, I primered the entire aircraft with a light mist of a 21st century "aluminum corrosion" inhibitor. Lucky for the fellow who bought it from me. He lives in Florida and they have lots of aircraft corrosion problems. I took a 100-year airframe and made it into a 200-year airframe.

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

The view is brilliant. I am 183 cms and fit into the aircraft quite comfortably without having to duck to see out.

Thanks Geoff. Your information is most helpful. I converted your 163 cms and learned that you're just a tad over 6 feet tall. I will have about 1 1/2 more inches head clearance because I stand only 5' 10 1/2" (180.3 cms). :-)

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

I'm 6'2" (188cm) and I fit okay with plenty of headroom. However, I only fly a max of 90 mins at a time due to the restricted leg room for someone of my height. . . .Due to the use of flaperons the plane has different landinging attitudes dependent upon the level of flaps used. Excellent slow flight characteristics too

Thanks alky1957. At 180.3 cms maybe I fall into the standard height category. Interesting note about flaperons. Of the many airplanes I have flown, I cannot think of any with flaperons. I had not even considered the possibility of "different landing attitudes" - Is that phenomenon similar to, say, landing a C150 with no flaps, 20 degrees of flaps, and full flaps? Or is there more to that. I am used to flatter or steeper descents and faster or slower approach and landing speeds depending on flap settings. Your "attitudes" raises my interest. Could/would you explain in a few words? Thanks!

 

 

[pylon500]

Is that phenomenon similar to, say, landing a C150 with no flaps, 20 degrees of flaps, and full flaps? Or is there more to that. I am used to flatter or steeper descents and faster or slower approach and landing speeds depending on flap settings. Your "attitudes" raises my interest. Could/would you explain in a few words? Thanks!

Yes, the pitch (attitude) change with flaps is noticeable, but more importantly is the change in adverse yaw as they are flaperons.

When instructing my students into flap use, I usually suggest that with;

 

•No flaps, just think about using rudder,

 

•One stage of flaps, definitely use rudder to coordinate,

 

•Two stages (full) flaps, almost forget about the ailerons and fly with rudder.

 

Having said that, I only teach the use of full flap very late in the training for short field work.

 

Generally, normal take offs are done with no flaps, and landing with only first stage flaps.

 

Crosswinds above 8~10kts, land without flap.

 

Another point, the electric trim is slow, and will only just trim one stage of flap.

 

Can get interesting with full up trim if doing touch and go's, as you have to watch the pitch up with power.

 

All that aside, I still think this is a great training, or even private, plane.

 

 

I've named this photo 'Foxbat_B', as this is an A22L, but the later model with smaller fin.

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

Yes, the pitch (attitude) change with flaps is noticeable, but more importantly is the change in adverse yaw as they are flaperons. . . . . When instructing my students into flap use, I usually suggest . . . All that aside, I still think this is a great training, or even private, plane.

Thanks "pylon500." That info is most helpful. I have always believed in knowing the airplane you are flying.

 

My main problem to date is just to find a Foxbat to fly (or even to look over). I've seen them at Sun 'n Fun, Oshkosh, etc, but with the crowds it is difficult to carry on a conversation about the finer points and it is virtually impossible to get a flight in one at such large airshows.

 

If you were a mite closer, I would drop in for at least a familiarization flight! Too bad there's a pond in the way (and it's a big one too - 4-5 crossings to date). I have not made it to Taree, but it seems that I have bracketed the location (with visits to Alice Springs, Melbourne, Sydney, Gold Coast, Brisbane, New Zealand . . . . and you seem to be somewhatg in the middle of those locales).

 

Nice photo. It that's the smaller fin, the big ones must look huge. I guess the tapered, narrow fuselage makes the vertical stabilizer look larger than it is.

 

 

[Downunder]

Nice photo. It that's the smaller fin, the big ones must look huge. I guess the tapered, narrow fuselage makes the vertical stabilizer look larger than it is.

No, it is big....double the size of a few aircraft around.....As the stall is so low, it's really good to be able to maintain decent control at these low speeds.

Same with the elevator.

 

With a lightish pilot and minimal fuel, the stall can drop well down into the twenties (knots).

 

Interesting you have electric trim Arthur. Didn't know it was available.

 

I'm in the habit of using 1 stage flap on take off. A few different views around. All have valid points. I see it as one less thing to think about in a go-around situation.

 

I do retract it pretty quickly but, at about 50kts......

 

And yellow is a good colour.....

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

The GlaStar, an experimental homebuilt, also has a large vertical stabilizer and rudder. Makes it a rather stable aircraft and quite responsive if one has a spade on the aileron - only need one, not two. Neverthess, re stab size, everyone was always commenting on how big mine was.

 

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

I'm 6'4" & come in at 240lb in American speak, I suppose think running back in gridiron, I find the cockpit spacious & comfortable, my longest trip was just under 4 hrs, ideally 2 hr legs are perfect. The handling of the a/c is superb & I totally agree with the previous pilots comments, I've been researching the various recreational a/c on the market & in my humble opinion the Foxbat ticks every box for me, at this stage I hope to order in about a years time. Taking the wife for a navex tomorrow for that $100 hamburger if the weather gods stay kind. Only 10 more years till I become a grey pilot nomad, who's counting

 

 

[pylon500]

Interesting you have electric trim Arthur. Didn't know it was available.

Of the four Foxbats I've flown, they've all had electric trim.

I only know a manual trim is available from reading the assembly manual of the kit version.

 

Sometimes think I would prefer a manual trim as the electric is quite slow, but at least I don't have to change hands with the stick mounted trim button.

 

As for the big/small fin variants, the rudder is the same size on both, so it becomes a percentage area thing where the big fin has less rudder authority than the small fin.

 

While I haven't spoken to Yuri, I assume the smaller fin was to get a better side slip capability, but it could also have been to get more rudder authority in crosswinds, less weather-cocking on the ground, or maybe just to save metal!

 

Believe it or not, the British authorities, when approving the early model as a kit, felt that the aircraft was over sensitive in rudder, and mandated that they be fitted with an anti-servo tab on the rudder!!

 

This caused at least one crash that I know of, and created a fatigue problem in a few others....?

 

Best to leave them as Yuri designed them.

 

 

[Geoff13]

I have flown 3 Foxbats and all have had electric trim. I wasn't aware that you could get a manual trim on them.

 

I agree that the trim can be a bit slow, especially during touch and go's. I would say however if you run out of trim on any of the three I have flown then you probably wouldn't like to the trim on a J230