Downunder Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 On base and pulling 1 stage of flap, I do go "full up" trim instantly after I've selected the flap. Sometimes it is a bit too much, depending on height/speed. I can see it being a pain waiting for the electric movement when other issues demand attention at this point. On the other hand the manual trim is a bit of a pain in cruise to fine tune. It has an adjustable friction nut and tends to jump slightly when pushing the trim lever. Sometimes hard to gauge enough force to move it a little bit rather than alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Actually rudder trim would be nice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Actually rudder trim would be nice. Getting a sore right foot? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I have flown 3 Foxbats and all have had electric trim. I wasn't aware that you could get a manual trim on them.I agree that the trim can be a bit slow, especially during touch and go's. I would say however if you run out of trim on any of the three I have flown then you probably wouldn't like to the trim on a J230 I concur that the trim is a little slow and the much higher rate on the Sportstar surprised me when I switched. I have no affection for the trim buttons on the grip that is common to both aircraft, PC joysticks I've used have better ergos. The rudder has enough authority to just about fly sideways, but if the trim tab isn't spot on, too much attention is needed to keep the ball in place. Rudder trim would be nice, but niceties all eat into the 280kg or so of useful load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I have flown 3 Foxbats and all have had electric trim. I wasn't aware that you could get a manual trim on them. I've been curious about this myself. The Aeroprakt-22LS POH (A22LS-XXX-POH-01) notes in Section 2.6.2 (Elevator trim tab control system) that the "trim tab lever is placed on the central console." The manual then describes a lever-controlled cable run to the elevator trim tab. (Fig. 4, Item 1). But in watching videos of Foxbats in flight, it seems obvious that some of the aircraft have button-controlled electrically operated trim tabs. See for example this video on landings at about the 4:40 mark. When flaps are engaged, the pilot immediately presses and holds the button on the control yoke, presumably to trim the aircraft. Because I am hundreds of miles from the nearest U.S. A22LS, these discussions are quite helpful as I try to acquaint myself with the airplane. All I have is a downloaded 22LS POH, and a list of lots of videos which I watch for familiarization. Having flown airplanes without any transition training, I prefer to know as much as I can even on what appears to be a relatively simple aircraft (compared to the multi-engine, cabin-class, or the aerobatic, or warbird types I've owned or flown. Surprises are not favored -- having had a few over the years. "Know thy aircraft." Thanks for the insights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I'm 6'4" & come in at 240lb in American speak, I suppose think running back in gridiron, I find the cockpit spacious & comfortable, my longest trip was just under 4 hrs, ideally 2 hr legs are perfect. Most helpful. I weight only 79.4 kilos or 12.5 stones, and get shorter every year. The Foxbat seems almost spacious. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 The Aeroprakt-22LS POH Be aware that if reading the LSA version handbook, some speed figures are higher than the plain old L version, mainly around flap speeds. Having flown airplanes without any transition training If you've been flying GA aircraft for a while, the sensitivity and power of the Foxbat controls may come as a bit of a surprise, also if you prefer to 'drive' your airplanes, you can get the Foxbat with steering wheels. I'm a stick and rudder man myself 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 If you've been flying GA aircraft for a while, the sensitivity and power of the Foxbat controls may come as a bit of a surprise, also if you prefer to 'drive' your airplanes, you can get the Foxbat with steering wheels. I'm a stick and rudder man myself Thanks "pylon500". I too have leaned toward stick-and-rudder. E.g., Nanchang CJ6A, RV3A, Hiperbipe, Citabria, GlaStar, all with sticks and rudders and 4 of those are taildraggers. I live to fly airplanes, but I also like to drive them. Depends on mission or mood. I also have owned Cessnas and Grummans, but even one of Cessnas was a C120 (taildragger). I do not worry about "sensitive controls," just lousy controls. I do like responsive airplanes because I too am "a stick and rudder man." BTW, I am having a bit of a problem remembering when, where, or why I last flew a "GA" airplane. On the other hand, I am considering the purchase of a plane like the Foxbat because I can fly sport pilot in the US without navigating some of the regulatory maze that becomes more difficult as time passes. I've yet to learn whether the 22LSs currently being imported into the US can be had with the center y-stick. Current US imports may be solely equipped with the "steering wheels" of which you speak. That is another point I am researching and - so far, at least - I can find more info through sources such as Recreational Flying than I can through US sources. But I am working on it. One of my alternatives in light sport is the Savage Cub (now called the Nomad in the US). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Generalising.... I prefer manual trim, manual flaps, and rudder trim (if I fly it a lot) fly by stick and side throttle so TANDEM Seat. cowl gills and tailwheel and probably highwing configuration. I'm somewhat wary of flapperons and extreme STOL airplanes. ( a bit difficult in gusts) Stability neutral and good control authority. Damped oleo's and strong brakes. Good rudder with lockable tailwheel. Good strong structure (steel tube) and above 8g ultimate and effective flaps (fowler). The Savage cub(Zlin) is OK so is a Supercub but the Carbon Cub with standard wheels & tyres would fill the bill for me. Maybe the AAK Hornet built in Taree might do it too. Look that one up Sr, I've flown a Glastar with Subaru. Not bad things, but I'd run a Lycoming with sound deadening. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 The Savage cub(Zlin) is OK so is a Supercub but the Carbon Cub with standard wheels & tyres would fill the bill for me. Maybe the AAK Hornet built in Taree might do it too. Look that one up Sr,I've flown a Glastar with Subaru. Not bad things, but I'd run a Lycoming with sound deadening. Nev Thanks facthunter. I'll look up the AAK Hornet but I suspect that it is not available in the states. I don't know all available models but one I've never heard of? I have to doubt it is available over here. My GlaStar had the Lyc 0320 with c/s prop and carb (because field repairs are easier with carbs than fuel injection). Never had a plane with a muffler. The Carbon Cub simply costs way too much for me to consider. A Savage fully equipped comes in waaaaaay cheaper than a Carbon Cub and a Foxbat, albeit not comparable in design or mission, is much cheaper than either of them. Ergo, my interest. Aviation is great fun; it just is not cheap. Probably costs almost as much as golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I really enjoyed flying the Savage Cub cruiser when one was available for hire at my local airfield a few years ago. Great fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I like the plane. Genuine small tailwheeler. Cub style. I don't know why it's savage. Rotax 912 engine Plane built by a company which produced many aerobatic aircraft . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Manual trim..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 And for all those "stick fairies" and knockers...... Squint REALLY hard and you won't see much difference between these two pics..... And it's even got the central throttle, just like the Dreamliner.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Manual trim..... So do all steering wheel versions have manual trim? And for all those "stick fairies" and knockers...... Had to do a double take on bottom photo, thought it was a picture of a computer simulator, that's really clean... And it's even got the central throttle, just like the Dreamliner I dont mind a central throttle, but then I'm an Instructor, so I usually sit on the right. Would probably prefer to fly spam cans from the right seat, just like driving a car.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 So do all steering wheel versions have manual trim? . . . Would probably prefer to fly spam cans from the right seat, just like driving a car.... I too prefer stick-and-rudder so "I don't always fly with a control yoke:drive: but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis." My last 3 airplanes had/have sticks; my previous 3 were taildraggers. Stick just seems more natural to me. One motion for what you want. With a control yoke, there's pushing/pulling and/or turning. It just seems a bit unnecessarily complex. I also prefer a throttle lever. My CJ-6A has (and my RV-3A had) the best setup for me. Throttle lever, mixture control, and trim on the left, stick in the middle. The RV even had the flap lever on the left. But there is no side-by-side seating in these aircraft. One's a tandem and the other is a single-seat. The ergonomics work for me. Query: If a control yoke is a "steering wheel," why do you use your feet to steer while taxiing? Why not just "turn the wheel"? Oh, pylon500, your observation about throttle location and seats would put us in the left seat, "just like driving a car." That's because we drive on the "right" (double entendre) side of the road while seated on the left - although as a former instructor, I too am used to flying from either seat. More queries: How are most Foxbats in Australia equipped - with stick or control yoke? Is one the default and the other an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 The standard fit is the Y side stick, the yoke option is $AUD595 extra. I agree 100% once you've flown with a side stick you'll never want to go back to that vintage yoke system, love my Airbus & Foxbat flight deck/cockpit. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 The standard fit is the Y side stick, the yoke option is $AUD595 extra. I agree 100% once you've flown with a side stick you'll never want to go back to that vintage yoke system, love my Airbus & Foxbat flight deck/cockpit. Thanks Bennyboy320. I probably will call the US distributor for the Aeroprakt 22LS tomorrow. Three tries so far. He said he had one in a crate. Don't know if it's available or belongs to a customer, but I would bet that it has a yoke, not a y-stick. Too many US pilots learned to fly in a Cessna or a Piper with a "wheel" (and a nose gear). BTW, I cannot resist the reference to the Airbus. I was USAF way back when SAC was trumping its slogan "Peace is our Profession" and we had a saying: "If it ain't (Southern US for 'isn't' or 'aren't') Boeing, I ain't going." Now that Airbus is building a factory in Mobile, Alabama, I will have to watch my tongue. Airbus will be in my backyard and Boeing is far, far away. (But the saying still rattles around in my head.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Query: With the troubles in the Ukraine, does anyone know Aeroprakt's situation? As I study the possible purchase of a 22LS, I ponder on such things as availability of parts, and, ultimately, insurance. Insurance already is becoming somewhat an issue with warbirds, experimentals, taildraggers, bush planes, and - I hate to say it - "senior pilots." I received notice from my carrier earlier in the week that they were departing the aviation insurance market but another company is offering to pick up the coverage for those policyholders. But it's getting more difficult and I am sure a company would be hesitant to cover an airplane if it was orphaned by local troubles, thus bringing into question the availability of parts or the possibility of exorbitant costs for necessary parts and repairs in the case of an inadvertent bump in the road (or air). BTW, I once rode across the Ukraine on a motorcycle once on my way around the Black Sea. Lots, possibly most, of the Ukrainian turf that I crossed - from Moldova to Mother Russia - is now located in the "autonomous zone" south of Kiev. The troops in place are no longer Ukrainian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I believe the factory is well away from the troubles in the Ukraine. I know someone buying quite a lot of spares at the moment and he say's there is no problem obtaining them. So all good on that front. I've got quite long arms and the side sticks always felt a bit cramped, so I don't mind the yokes. When trimmed right there is no need to hold the yoke. Pretty much steer on the rudder in cruise. Suits me anyway..... http://www.foxbat.com.au/index . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 The GlaStar, an experimental homebuilt, also has a large vertical stabilizer and rudder. Makes it a rather stable aircraft and quite responsive if one has a spade on the aileron - only need one, not two. Neverthess, re stab size, everyone was always commenting on how big mine was. In ya' dreams.... Kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWing Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Query: With the troubles in the Ukraine, does anyone know Aeroprakt's situation? As I study the possible purchase of a 22LS, I ponder on such things as availability of parts, and, ultimately, insurance. Insurance already is becoming somewhat an issue with warbirds, experimentals, taildraggers, bush planes, and - I hate to say it - "senior pilots." I received notice from my carrier earlier in the week that they were departing the aviation insurance market but another company is offering to pick up the coverage for those policyholders. But it's getting more difficult and I am sure a company would be hesitant to cover an airplane if it was orphaned by local troubles, thus bringing into question the availability of parts or the possibility of exorbitant costs for necessary parts and repairs in the case of an inadvertent bump in the road (or air).BTW, I once rode across the Ukraine on a motorcycle once on my way around the Black Sea. Lots, possibly most, of the Ukrainian turf that I crossed - from Moldova to Mother Russia - is now located in the "autonomous zone" south of Kiev. The troops in place are no longer Ukrainian. Hello thread followers - Peter at Foxbat Australia here. Maybe a couple of points of clarification would be helpful. The A22LS 'Foxbat' has a Y-stick with electric elevator trim as standard. Because of the ergonomics and the position of the Y-stick, having a manual trim lever with the Y-stick doesn't work. The twin Cessna style yokes are optional and, to help minimise the extra cost, they come with a manual elevator trim lever. Electric trim is available with the yokes but so far in Australia, no-one has ordered it. The manual trim is much quicker than the electric when used during landing approach. However, due to its much lower gearing, the electric trim is easier to get straight & level hands-free flight in the cruise. Regarding the hostilities in Ukraine - the factory is just to the west of Kiev - close to 1,000 kilometres away from the separatists. In the last 18 months since the problems began, I have delivered 19 A22LS in Australia and many thousands of dollars worth of parts. I think the factory is determined to show the world that they are in no way affected by what's going on in the east of Ukraine and their service has been impeccable. Concerning spare parts - much of the aircraft - engine, propellers, instruments, avionics, wheels, brakes, tyres, nuts and bolts etc are all available from USA and Australian suppliers. It is really only certain airframe parts which are factory-specific and all of these can be 're-manufactured' by a competent aircraft repair shop. Some airframe parts can also be sourced through component suppliers - eg windshields, door transparencies etc. At any time, I hold several thousand dollars worth of spare parts - except for engine parts, which are available through the local Rotax importer. Any problems, just call me. Search for Foxbat Australia on this site for details. Hope that's helpful! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Hello thread followers - Peter at Foxbat Australia here. Regarding the hostilities in Ukraine - the factory is just to the west of Kiev - close to 1,000 kilometres away from the separatists.. . . I think the factory is determined to show the world that they are in no way affected by what's going on in the east of Ukraine and their service has been impeccable. Hope that's helpful! Very helpful for me. Thanks. Of course, I am in the USA so getting parts out of Australia isn't without some challenge for us. Of course, at one time I was sending needed materials to Australia for a couple of fellow GlaStar builders. Maybe I would not need to recruit an Australian to source parts for me. We have a US factory agent just 600 miles away. If they can get the parts, I can get the parts through them. Thanks again for the sitrep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWing Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Very helpful for me. Thanks. Of course, I am in the USA so getting parts out of Australia isn't without some challenge for us. Of course, at one time I was sending needed materials to Australia for a couple of fellow GlaStar builders. Maybe I would not need to recruit an Australian to source parts for me. We have a US factory agent just 600 miles away. If they can get the parts, I can get the parts through them. Thanks again for the sitrep. No problem. I have always liked the Glastar - a friend in Queensland had one and he gave me a lift home from Foxbat ferry deliveries on a couple of occasions. I also like the Sportsman - but price is way out of my league.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SrPilot Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 No problem. I have always liked the Glastar - a friend in Queensland had one and he gave me a lift home from Foxbat ferry deliveries on a couple of occasions. I also like the Sportsman - but price is way out of my league.... My GlaStar was very nice. They had advertised early on that it could be built from the kit in a few hundred hours - I heard 200, for example. It took me only 6 1/2 years to build mine. They said a few hand tools and common sense. I was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, but I had to go to school on composites, and I ended up with two - not one - roll around tool chests up to eye level chock full of a very, very nice collection of tools. Drop in anytime. If you have a problem with your aircraft, I've got a tool that will fix it (assuming that between two of us we can identify just what it is that is wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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