Ultralight plane crash Hunter Valley

[Guest Andys@coffs]

With respect to the question of appropriateness of previous posts of mine I would point out, to those that didn't know, that you cant google a thread title here and get a link to the thread. Or to put it another way, you must log in and search for it or browse to it. Non aviator relatives cant just stumble across it as a result of using internet search engines, rather they must make a concerted effort to find it, and have an account on this forum. (From what I can see in testing it tonight using InPrivate mode which hides existing cookies....http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+Ultralight+plane+crash+Hunter+Valley+site:recreationalflying.com) while it does come up, its only news, and not accident and incident thread....but that be because the robot hasn't yet indexed the posts. Even so, you must provide credentials to go to an A&I thread

 

Andy

 

 

[Aldo]

This thread is for this accidentIf a open debate to discuss this years dismal performance is needed then it should be done on a separate thread. I'd like to be able to return here and easily find the relevant information concerning this accident without having to scroll thru dozens of posts full of emotion to get to it.

Andy start a new thread mate.

Ozzie

 

Every accident has it own set of circumstances that got it to where it is, one of the biggest issues is that there is little information available to be able to make an informed comment unless you were onsite at the time of the accident. Therefore I believe each accident should be discussed to see if we are able to garner any information that will assist the rest of us, eventually someone will know something that is relevant.

 

You mention scrolling through all the emotional posts, one way to fix this is for the moderator/s to remove accident posts from the forum, generally within an hour of an accident being reported it is on this site and everyone is able to have their 2 bobs worth about it, we all want to know what happened and why and as more information comes to hand we all have our views on what went wrong and how it could have been avoided this is normal human behavior, as we are a very inquisitive animal.

 

Sadly (in context) most aircraft accidents are not from mechanical/structural failure (if they were that could be fixed easily) and that leaves only one reason (the person behind the throttle) I don't know the answers, but I try my best to ensure that I'm not the next person discussed.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Aldo]

Bugger. I was a member of that club (though my membership has lapsed I still get occasional emails). I was actually planning on flying there today but wasn't really happy with the weather forecast so I've left it until tomorrow.It can't go on like this.

And this is the attitude that all need to adopt, this is from someone who has more IF hours than most people have had hot dinners and encompasses all the relevant human factors and airmanship qualities that all need to adopt.

 

Aldo

 

 

[dutchroll]

And this is the attitude that all need to adopt, this is from someone who has more IF hours than most people have had hot dinners and encompasses all the relevant human factors and airmanship qualities that all need to adopt.Aldo

Sheesh mate.......you're making me blush. I owe you some beers for that one. ;) And you just made me go and look up my instrument (actual) time!

 

 

[shafs64]

is runway 17 left or right circuit

 

 

[DonRamsay]

While he was a fellow club member, I didn't know the pilot personally but I know many who did. Even still I am deeply saddened to hear of this terrible accident. How his close friends and family must feel I don't want to imagine.

 

For all that, I think it is important that, when you get the facts - and they are not available yet, to ask yourself the question that I ask myself: "Could that have been me?" I do that every time I hear of an accident and particularly a fatal accident.

 

As a pilot, it is only natural human inquisitiveness to want to know what happened and how I might avoid a similar fate. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to know facts and do some analysis.

 

I think it perfectly reasonable for somebody to offer broad based urging to take being PIC very seriously and to thereby minimise the chances of becoming the victim of misadventure. Somebody like Andy has special credibility in doing so as he has demonstrated he cares about the welfare of fellow pilots by working his butt off for us all on the Board and taking the time to post here despite the outrageous "slings and arrows".

 

We do need the sort of non-final, non-binding report from RAAus that the ATSB generates within 28 days of a crash. To be able to do that, RAAus would need to come under the sort of legislative protection that the ATSB enjoys. AS it is RAAus does not enjoy that protection and is not the lead investigator even. That duty of course falls to the Police.

 

We need that sort of prompt report because we will learn from it soonest and be most interested while it is still current.

 

RAAus recently published something relating to the LW Speed 2000 accident - specifically that there was no concern about the particular make/model that contributed to that fatality. That at least is a good start.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

is runway 17 left or right circuit

Left. Both 17 and 35 are left circuits in daylight hours.

 

 

[shafs64]

Yes I just looked at Google earth. and noted where the aircraft went down. well know the circuit is where it can all go wrong.

 

 

[Guest asmol]

Now they are saying the plane was not registered, again this makes us all look like cowboys flying these death machines, hoons of the sky will be the next headline.

 

If the plane was not registered then we (RA-Aus) need to distance ourselves and have nothing to do with the investigation IMO

 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/pilot-dies-in-ultralight-plane-crash-in-hunter-valley/story-fni0cx12-1227366388263

 

 

[turboplanner]

No chance asmol, that stunt was tried once before with long term consequences.

 

 

[shafs64]

anyone know what sort of aircraft yet? and I would not go by what the media say. they never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

anyone know what sort of aircraft yet? and I would not go by what the media say. they never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Designed and built by the pilot. Said to have some similarities to a Morgan.

 

 

[biggles]

Now they are saying the plane was not registered, again this makes us all look like cowboys flying these death machines, hoons of the sky will be the next headline.If the plane was not registered then we (RA-Aus) need to distance ourselves and have nothing to do with the investigation IMO

 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/pilot-dies-in-ultralight-plane-crash-in-hunter-valley/story-fni0cx12-1227366388263

I seem to recall RAAus being requested to assist the police in similar circumstances some time ago , even though they are not really involved . Just seems reasonable in these matters when ,after all ,we are the experts and should assist wherever possible ...... Bob

 

 

[dutchroll]

Now they are saying the plane was not registered, again this makes us all look like cowboys flying these death machines, hoons of the sky will be the next headline.If the plane was not registered then we (RA-Aus) need to distance ourselves and have nothing to do with the investigation IMO

 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/pilot-dies-in-ultralight-plane-crash-in-hunter-valley/story-fni0cx12-1227366388263

That actually creates more problems than it solves. It never looks good for an organisation to refuse to cooperate with an investigation. Management of how the newsmedia report it is another issue and it's one that just has to be dealt with as best as possible, even when they get it horribly wrong. The RAA people will be only too aware of this.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Condolences to the family & friends of this latest pilot & fellow brother of the skies.

 

Fly as safe as you possibly can fellow brothers of the air.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Now they are saying the plane was not registered, again this makes us all look like cowboys flying these death machines, hoons of the sky will be the next headline.If the plane was not registered then we (RA-Aus) need to distance ourselves and have nothing to do with the investigation IMO

We need to see if the aircraft could have been RAAus registered. Was it built to RAAus or GA rules? Did the pilot have an RAAus certificate or GA licence, or both, or neither? Even so, no matter the answers, it would not hurt to help if asked.

 

 

[bull]

I think the general thrust of Andy's post is one of shear frustration ,both as a board member and a recreational pilot ,which I'm sure also applies to all here . It is also clear to me ,that if this state of affairs continues, the regulator could be forced to take action ,which could include grounding all aircraft ,,,,,,Sorry biggles but your statement just go,s to show how much of a nanny state this country is becoming,every day all over Australia people participate in DANGEROUS activities, by choice and know the risks involved ,AVIATION is a DANGEROUS activity and if you choose to do it ,you know the risks involved . By your reasoning all motor bike clubs should be shut down ,all parachuting clubs should be shut down ,,all rally drivers should be banned ,all quad bikes should banned etc etc etc nobody delibretly go,s out to kill them self doing the sport that they love and if you can tell me how to stop myself tripping over and hitting my head as i get out of bed ,that would be great..........................

[ayavner]

to be fair, biggles said "could", not "should"

 

 

[dutchroll]

,,,,,Sorry biggles but your statement just goes to show how much of a nanny state this country is becoming,every day all over Australia people participate in DANGEROUS activities, by choice and know the risks involved ,AVIATION is a DANGEROUS activity and if you choose to do it ,you know the risks involved . By your reasoning all motor bike clubs should be shut down ,all parachuting clubs should be shut down ,,all rally drivers should be banned ,all quad bikes should banned etc etc etc nobody delibretly go,s out to kill them self doing the sport that they love and if you can tell me how to stop myself tripping over and hitting my head as i get out of bed ,that would be great..........................

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Regulator intervention comes when the risk to other people from your activities exceeds their comfort level. Aside from direct friends and relatives, nobody else dwells on it too much if you kill just yourself in the informed pursuit of a dangerous activity. However if you crash into a school classroom in the pursuit of your dangerous activity, or you take out 2 or 3 other people, or you even make it look possible that you will do so, then everybody starts caring.....a lot.

 

Grounding would be the most severe action, but it is invariably a temporary measure to allow urgent safety action to be taken before getting things back in the air. I have seen a number of groundings in my aviation career for this reason. But there are no indications that this is going to happen.....yet.

 

 

[biggles]

I'm certainly not advocating that action Bull , too many good people would suffer due to the actions of another. Just trying to alert people as to what may be possible if this trend continues ...... Bob

 

 

[bull]

Regulator intervention comes when the risk to other people from your activities exceeds their comfort level. Aside from direct friends and relatives, nobody else dwells on it too much if you kill just yourself in the informed pursuit of a dangerous activity. However if you crash into a school classroom in the pursuit of your dangerous activity, or you take out 2 or 3 other people, or you even make it look possible that you will do so, then everybody starts caring.....a lot.

I was wondering if you could tell me the last time ,if ever anyone other than the pilot or passenger was killed by an raa plane ,and which school or kindy or shop etc that a raa plane has crashed into resulting in others deaths please ,,thanks As other dangerous sporting activities have a big record of these sorts of accidents,where others are killed or injured that are not involved in that sport,,ie:jet skis have killed many poor swimmers ,rally cars have taken out spectators ,motorcross has taken out crowds etc etc etc ,can you justify your statement with factual evidence and cases , and tell me why these other DANGEROUS activities are not banned or stopped {grounded}

 

 

[bull]

And Bob sorry for the rant as i did read the post wrong ,but my statements still stand . Scott.

 

 

[Spriteah]

You're barking up the wrong tree.Regulator intervention comes when the risk to other people from your activities exceeds their comfort level. Aside from direct friends and relatives, nobody else dwells on it too much if you kill just yourself in the informed pursuit of a dangerous activity. However if you crash into a school classroom in the pursuit of your dangerous activity, or you take out 2 or 3 other people, or you even make it look possible that you will do so, then everybody starts caring.....a lot.

 

Grounding would be the most severe action, but it is invariably a temporary measure to allow urgent safety action to be taken before getting things back in the air. I have seen a number of groundings in my aviation career for this reason. But there are no indications that this is going to happen.....yet.

Didn't it crash 10-15 metres from 60 people?

 

Jim

 

 

[Spriteah]

That actually creates more problems than it solves. It never looks good for an organisation to refuse to cooperate with an investigation. Management of how the newsmedia report it is another issue and it's one that just has to be dealt with as best as possible, even when they get it horribly wrong. The RAA people will be only too aware of this.

If the aircraft or pilot are attached to RAAus we offer to assist. There are many NSW Police who have also completed RAAus investigators consultant course themselves. Although not in policy we are cautious not to become involved in every crash when the aircraft and pilot are not connected to our association. It is hard for us to justify spending members money assisting with an investigation when it is not directly linked to RAAus. It then falls to the regulator.

 

Regards,

 

Jim Tatlock.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Didn't it crash 10-15 metres from 60 people?Jim

Yeah, I don't buy that. That is thirty to 45 feet away, and they didn't notice the wreckage until someone was driving away? Must be thick scrub...... Or maybe sensationalist reporting .