Tail dragger experience

[Akromaster]

I'm relatively low hours with only "training-wheels" at the front. I'm looking to convert my pilot cert over to RPL primarily to open up options for 4 seaters, but as a side-effect it opens up a world of other planes including tail draggers.

 

Apart from the RVs, I'd like to eventually fly something more in the budget like say the Thorpe T18. I'm not a camper guy (never have been) so STOL performance is not really one of my main criteria. For me it's more about getting to and enjoying the destination - the plane is basically just the vehicle to get there. Not to say that it can be any plane...it's gotta be aesthetically pleasing as well of course (I know "beauty is.." well you know).

 

I look at planes like the Thorpe T18, Sonerai, KR2 and there seems to be a fair bit of discussion on their vices. Still there are plenty of them around and people have hundreds of hours in them. Sounds to me like it comes down to one's experience really.

 

So with that, I wonder what folks thought about building tail draggers hours (in what tail dragger) to eventually comfortably fly more challenging tail draggers such as these?

 

 

[Happyflyer]

In the RAAus world something like a Skyfox or Lightwing would be a good training aircraft and a good aircraft to build hours on. In the GA world a Piper Cub, Tiger Moth or Citabria types are also great for getting the basic skills. RV aircraft are a little more of a challenge but not that hard and all I have flown handle beautifully. Just remember, a tailwheel aircraft is just waiting for you to be distracted on the ground so it can bite you. Don't relax until you have the chocks in and you will be fine

 

 

[kaz3g]

I couldn't let this one go without a comment

 

Skyfox and Lightwing can both keep you quite busy with the rudder during the landing roll. A Citabria and, to a lesser extent, the Cub is fairly docile. An AUSTER always keeps you on your toes.

 

I learned to fly tail wheels in sailplanes and then an RF5 and a Faulke. I got my GA endorsements in a Decathlon and have a little time in a Minicab, Maule and Beaver. I fly an Auster these days and have survived around 350 hours in it so I have progressed from Ls to Ps in the TW world. But I don't think that's enough for me to be turned loose in a Thorpe.

 

The Thorpes, T and S models, are twitchy little machines. Very close-coupled, pretty quick, high wing loading and stall speed. They were designed for the O-290 Lycoming of 135 HP but I've seen them with O-360s and CS props which must eat into performance in every way. They are +6/-3 g at design weight but most seem to be a lot heavier than what John originally envisaged so their aerobatic capability might be significantly compromised. They aren't built for 6'+ Aussies, either.

 

On the plus side they carry enough fuel to take you a fair way at near RV pace. They are cheap....

 

Thorpes were all the go when I was much younger and dreamed of emulating my WWII heroes, the women of the ATA in their Spitfires and other high performance aircraft, but I was much sharper and less cautious then. I also think the RV is a much better and safer machine.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Akromaster]

T/d endo in a tiger moth would be cool...where in Vic can you do that?

 

Skyfox is certainly an option that's relatively close. Was booked in to do endo in one at Tocumwal while on holidays there but woke up on the day with massively sore throat and had to cancel!

 

What about the Corby Starlet? Love the look of it also and not much bad press about it - just not much room for instructor. ;)

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Akromaster, there's an RAAus FTF at Wangaratta operating an Aeronca Champ. If you're thinking T18, this would be a good outfit to fly with. The owner also happens to own a T18, along with a bunch of other tail draggers.

 

 

[flyerme]

There's a training thruster in boxwood vic . Cheap hour rate too

 

 

[red750]

Check out Lilydale for this EuroFox:

 

 

 

[IanR]

Was booked in to do endo in one at Tocumwal while on holidays there but woke up on the day with massively sore throat and had to cancel!

A taildragger endorsement in one day ?

 

 

[facthunter]

Super decathlon plus Pitts should cover it. Do some aeros and attitude recoveries at the same time. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

If you're happy to go GA give Hazair in Albury a call. They've got a DeHavilland Chipmunk under refurbishment and should be flying very soon, if not now. Not necessarily the best prep for a T18, but one of the nicest aeroplanes you'll ever fly.

 

With the right instruction and enough practice you should be able to fly most/all tailwheel types.

 

I too am a little concerned about the understanding you can adequately complete a taildragger endorsement in one day. You need time between sessions to let the skills sink in, then go back to it several times to reinforce the skills and gain exposure to a range of conditions. Funnily enough, so called benign conditions (calm / light and variable wind) seem to be as common a factor in ground loops as challenging conditions. I reckon it's cause the pilot thinks it's all too easy half way through the rollout and start looking for taxiways, raising flaps, changing frequencies etc and before they know it they've lost it. Remember you are flying the aircraft until it's either tied down or locked in the hangar!

 

 

[thommo]

I've got a Cessna 140 that I can dry hire out to you. If you do a few hrs a month you could even relocated it where you live.

 

 

[thommo]

Cessna 140

 

RAAUS REGO

 

 

 

[Akromaster]

A taildragger endorsement in one day ?

After I wrote that, I thought someone might reply as such. Didn't think I needed to explain, but a throat infection (and other nasties that go with it) don't go away very quickly either which is why I had to put the whole thing on hold.

 

Check out Lilydale for this EuroFox:

I've been out to Lilydale and I don't recall the instructor's name, but I did speak to him about it a few weeks ago. It's his plane I believe and while I wait for RPL paper work, I might go give it a go.

 

Super decathlon plus Pitts should cover it. Do some aeros and attitude recoveries at the same time. Nev

I think DJPACRO is in VIC with his Pitts isn't he? :)...

 

Cessna 140RAAUS REGO

I'll definitely keep that one in mind...

 

 

[red750]

I think DJPACRO is in VIC with his Pitts isn't he? :)...

Dave is (or was) also at Lilydale.

 

 

[Yenn]

I flew Lightwings and Skyfox after flying Chipmunk and Fairchild Argus a long time before that. Took a bit of getting used to the Lightwing, but not too bad. I reckon to fly a Lightwing would enable you to fly most small GA taildraggers. I flew a Thruster while I built a Corby Starlet. If you can fly a Thruster you are well on the way to being taildragger competent.

 

Flying the Corby is fairly easy except that you cannot see ahead when you flare, just need good periferal vision and busy feet.

 

RVs are easy, better vision and big flaps as well as the ability to slip it in. Thommos C140 would be good.

 

 

[Akromaster]

Thommos C140 would be good.

Never even crossed my mind until Thommo mentioned it, but since then I've been watching a few videos and pics of the Cessna 140...What some folks have done with the interior, and especially the panels, are ace!

 

 

[thommo]

My Cessna 140 also has the 0-200 100hp

 

 

[dutchroll]

I've not flown a Citabria but they certainly seem to be considered very good introductory tailwheel trainers.

 

My first ever taildragger endorsement was on an active duty RAAF Winjeel, which was an interesting learning curve being such a large beast and having a couple of serious vices, but I wouldn't recommend that to anyone with low hours! I flew Tiger Moths and Chipmunks for a while in my spare time, of which I'd certainly add my recommendation of the Chippy as a very pleasant taildragger to fly. Just really enjoyable. The Tiger Moth is quite docile although the one I used to fly was the one which had the wing come off in WA in 1998 and killed the pilot and passenger (VH-TMK). With that hindsight I'd be really fussy about the history of any Tiger Moth before I flew it (I was blissfully unaware of the issues it had, but I never did aeros in it so I guess I was lucky). IMHO you will need spin training if you choose to fly a Chippy as it is quite fussy with spin recovery control inputs, but if you do it properly, it's fine.

 

The Pitts designs are one of the classic advanced aerobatic taildraggers. Don't get me wrong - they do exactly what you tell them to do without hesitation, but that trait can be quite a double-edged sword! I would get some time up and become very comfortable in something more docile and forgiving of your errors before graduating to anything like that.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

The Tiger Moth is quite docile although the one I used to fly was the one which had the wing come off in WA in 1998 and killed the pilot and passenger (VH-TMK). With that hindsight I'd be really fussy about the history of any Tiger Moth before I flew it (I was blissfully unaware of the issues it had, but I never did aeros in it so I guess I was lucky). IMHO you will need spin training if you choose to fly a Chippy as it is quite fussy with spin recovery control inputs, but if you do it properly, it's fine.

You were quite safe flying TMK when MGFS operated it. After leaving that org' it went to Melbourne where it had a forced landing which tore a lower wing off, the upper wing wasn't inspected properly. The undetected damage subsequently resulted in the inflight breakup in WA. But, as you say you really need to know the history of an aircraft of that age and who's maintaining it if you're going to start throwing it around. The same applies to the wooden spar Citabrias, Decathlons and Scouts. The ribs are nailed to the spar, if operated outside limits (high G, over weight or over VMO in rough air) the nails work their way out and the aluminium ribs cut into the spar.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yeah I heard on the grapevine about inspections not being done before the accident report, which was an eye-opener, came out. Fungal decay, major wing components not matching logbook records, incorrect rigging procedures, etc.

 

They said not to do aeros in it, so I never did, being more than happy to just take girls for joyflights to impress them (my young, single, and far more foolish days.......but I have to say it worked!). Apparently there were rumours of others not following my logic though (ie, if the owner or operator doesn't want you to do aeros, then don't do aeros).

 

 

[facthunter]

Agree with your comments on the Chipmunk. It has a good control feel. Spins need to be well taught and don't bang the tailwheel on the ground hard it can deform the structure and jamb the elevator full up. It's not overpowered and the rudder is a bit small.

 

Solid wood spars are fine( Citabria,) but you must report ground loops where the wing contacts anything, or wing contacts in hangar rash events.

 

Any aircraft doing aeros will have extra inspections needed. "G" meter is standard on later craft.

 

Tiger moth is a classic plane but in my opinion a bit over rated and limited for aeros. Doesn't have a very good stick feel but worthwhile doing a few hours in for experience. It's draggy but has few vices sideslips like a dream spins predictably, you have to hang out the side to see anything when landing, and PLEASE 3 point it most times. The modified brake fitted models have the wheels further forward and are a bit harder to keep straight for that reason. so do the occasional wheeler there. Nev

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I always find it interesting when people say a certain type of aircraft should be three pointed or wheeled on. Sometimes it is the case that it is easier one way or the other due to the undercarriage design. Often you will get two camps saying different things for the same aircraft. To me that just shows the aircraft is quite capable of doing either and it is the pilot that is limited. In my opinion the Tiger main gear has a beautifully soft suspention that lends itself to wheel on with ease. The majority of my Tiger landings are wheelers as are those of my friends. Having said that, it is very satisfying doing a perfect three point landing in that aircraft and perhaps it needs a higher level of skill to get the three pointers spot on.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I agree Happy Flyer, having done several thousand hours of tailwheel training in a broad range of types I do find it is predominantly individual pilot ability / perception. Using the same briefing and demo in a given type some pilots take to wheelers and others don't, although not to the same degree I've seen the same with three pointers. The Cessna 180/185 is a classic for this observation. Most trainees can do wheelers, but occasionally you'll get one who will get impatient and try to put it on with too high a sink rate, start bouncing and get out of phase trying to correct it.

 

I agree with Nev, the Tiger was designed to be three pointed, but on all ove fields and into wind on grass. I personally prefer to do tail down wheelers in a Tiger on sealed runways or in crosswinds. Into wind, on other than sealed runways, I like to three point them - when you reach the three point attitude they'll usually give a bit of buffet and sit comfortably on all three points. Heavier machines like the Beech 18 can be three pointed, but you've got to be very current and be spot on the right speed or you'll use up a heap of runway in the hold off, whereas wheeling you can be a bit more accurate with the touchdown point. You feel very vulnerable in that phase just prior to touchdown, particularly if the breeze is gusting.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The bungees in the Auster make for interesting wheelers, especially on a sealed runway.

 

I always look for the grass where I can. And I routinely 3 point but occasionally do a tail low wheeler in crosswinds. It's a STOL aircraft, after all.

 

Kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

Happy flyer, years ago when everyone flew tigers you would rarely see a wheeler done. I trained initially at district park Newcastle. A remarkably small aerodrome where you could easily run out of space to land. the x wind component is only about 9 Knots and if you arrived somewhere like Pt Macquarie you had to cop what was there on the day. If you do a touchdown with the wingtip and tailskid just off the surface you are in a good position to NOT groundloop ( at least at any significant speed).. I was lucky to get the opportunity to instruct in the DH 82 before it disappeared from flying schools.

 

When you instruct you get to see the plane at it's limit now and again as I was getting people who hadn't flown tailwheel who thought the rudder pedals were for resting your feet on sometimes.

 

I agree that in gusty conditions it may be safer to wheel it on as you are more in control on final approach. I don't know about the Beech 18 but the DC3 wasn't three pointed.

 

I actually consider the 3 point on the Tiger to be much easier to judge. The speed washes off pretty quickly and the stick comes back in a short time, if you aren't carrying excess speed..

 

I've seen people using a lot of runway wheeling it on. Nev