Comparison of OzRunways vs. AvPlan EFB on iPad

[Steve G]

Hi everyone, I just joined to post my opinions.

 

A plan and Ozrunways.

 

Vfr planning hard to split the difference. Brilliant on recent long trip YHML YBHI YTVL.

 

Traffic info very flawed. On ozruneays you either see other ozrunways traffic or adsb in using the flight solutions adsb receiver but can't see both.

 

The post saying rpt only is incorrect trsinig AC Vic Tas said all squawking adsb and if you don't see them you are half flying blind.

 

Printing if you have a work $1000 printer that doesn't do air print forget it. Do homework and count on buying an air printer.

 

Ifr maps on both the erc charts brilliant and the subs compare well with air services charges es if you factor in versa alone which is $100 pa.

 

Size and mounting. Bit of an issue iPad mini on yoke below the scan.

 

Haven't done an IMC or night flight yet so will let you know how invasive a bright screen is to real hands on approaches and your night vision.

 

Long flights and powering up all the gadgets, adsb and iPad mini, cig plug looks like heath Robinson directs everywhere, power, adsb aerial and GPS.

 

GPS yes what a pia!

 

Ozerunways needs ipad mini and a sim version.

 

So if you haven't got be too bad, you need to spend $100 on sports gps fongle.

 

Current count in plane is two GPS serials outside and two on window one for ads in one foot iPad air.

 

The notion using one iPad mini with sum will cover 90% of oz sounds like the nbn action spin, it does not. Cells are for highway users not airplanes atvaktitude.

 

Get remote lose cells.

 

2 cents. Stayed tuned.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I downloaded an app called Oprint which you install on your desk top and it acts as an AirPrint emulator. Allows you to print from any wifi device onto your desktop linked printer. Seems to work well.

 

 

[Robbo]

Never had a problem using it at night, you just dull the display or put it in night mode.

 

 

[Steve G]

Thanks I used iprint scan that would not work with an MFC scan/Printer so ended up buying an AIRprinter. Ozrunways were helpful. Would like to hear about other ways of printing from an Ipad on a windows networked business system.

 

 

[Steve G]

I think there are many issues with use of IPADS in the air secured and unsecured and I am not talking about VFR day recreational flying. If you have done any IFR work without an autopilot the old adage comes into play and the jury is still out on how OZERUNWAYS is integrated into day to day (and night to night flying)

 

e.g

 

I see HEMPS air medicals on the screen in middle of the night and RFDS planes as traffic so it would be interesting to hear the opinions of pros and how they have integrated an IPAD with either system into their flying activities.

 

Re night vision I am a first responder and do many night trips in wee small hours.

 

I choose to turn off the radio/gps and dim the car down to near zero internal lighting as a result of multiple wild life near misses late at night on country highways.

 

Night vision is very complex and even a normal GPS or car radio GPS captures the retina with peripheral vision.

 

Also red green protanopes like me have issues with night colour that normal pilots do not.

 

You cant dismiss the reduction in night vision that easily and I was referring to hands on IFR night flying with cockpit dimmed down, scans, approaches and aviating along with the the extra load of looking at a screen and balancing and reducing the brightness so that when you look down and up your vision is not affected.

 

 

[djpacro]

Had an issue with Avplan recently:

 

I have Avplan on an iPad Mini and an iPhone.

 

The iPad is the cellular model but a sim card is not installed.

 

Wanted to show a friend so the night before I opened it up (at home so connected to the internet (via wifi) on the iPad to make sure all was up to date. All good.

 

The next day (not connected to the internet) I was unable to access it – it gave an error - said that my subscription had expired yet I had 6 months to go. Tried it connected to the internet via my iPhone as well, didn’t help. Much later in the day later it worked.

 

Same issue with the iPhone - good connection to the internet at all times.

 

Avplan support responded: "We were experiencing some website issues which caused these issues."

 

My response - "I would’ve thought that my iPad not being connected to the internet would’ve been especially immune to such website issues – perhaps it did something in the background before I left home. Glad it didn’t happen on my trip to Qld recently – sorry, but .." I am going to dump Avplan, I wonder if OzRunways can suffer from the same problem?

 

As for mounting an EFB on a control yoke - refer to the CAAP on the subject.

 

 

[Steve G]

Thanks

 

Yes I swapped from IPAD Mini 4 WIFI to an IPAD MINI 2 with sim

 

I did this because I needed a back up power source to plug into the Lightning Connector on a long flight so unless I wanted to drop my position

 

I needed to ensure a continuous coverage this the sim card model.

 

It does track and my plane shows up where I am.

 

Map can track north but map doesn't track

 

You have to swipe it manually.

 

When you fly manually no ap IFR the IPAD is the last thing you want to be messing with.

 

I also did lose my subscription on the ipads when I combined so now I download all subs on my IPAD AIR and do a peer to peer connection away from my WIFI in the plane and its very fast to put new DAPS update into the IPAD MINI

 

OZR say with my AU SUB I am allowed an IPAD MINI an AIR and two phones wow, so I use one IPAD AIR as base download on WIFI and keep the thinned down minis in my flight back and transfer the files I need via peer to peer as required.

 

OK on mounting will check.

 

Steve

 

 

[Steve G]

Since I started this thread mid 2015, I've been happy to stick with OzRunways, and for what it is worth I find the interface more intuitive.Interestingly, I recently spent 20 hours in my cockpit on an outback excursion with a very experienced AvPlan user (also a beta tester for them, and an IFR pilot). At no time did I find that he had better situational awareness using AvPlan, than I had with OzRunways. Each of us could call up specific info whilst enroute without hesitation (eg. Met, aerodrome info, Weight & Balance etc. etc.)

 

Ultimately, we are fortunate in Australia to have two competitive products to choose from, each one keeping the other "honest" with the latest features.

 

I've concluded that one can use whichever interface one finds most intuitive. For me, that's been OzRunways.

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS???

 

What skills will you get, retain and what will you lose?

 

You raise an interesting point here.

 

As a newbie to EFB I am experimenting to see how it adds to my situational awareness IFR when flying an approach.

 

Keeping approach skills is going to be hard enough with so few aids left to keep recent upon.

 

Most will drop to GNSS NPAs as sole means I think.

 

I imagine other IFR guys are thinking along the same lines, what can you use an IPAD for legally?

 

I have developed all my IFR skills dating back to 1987 and some 5000 hours on my scans and instrument interpretation.

 

Within limits I can nail the drift and fly VOR and NDB approaches in the worst winds and hold tolerance or get back onto track and be accurate on final.

 

GPS came along and I did a GPS cource and passed a GPS NPA in 2008 and got endorsed in GARMIN stuff 430, 430W 530, GNC300XL

 

And flew approaches to their limits.

 

Then along came EFB with a nice coloured map and you can set the WAYPOINTS on the map and the aircraft pointer shows where you are going.

 

its a great addition you can even see the inbound course and track you are steering on an approach plate.

 

My concern is if it dumbs down the IFR skills of a pilot who chooses to look at the IPAD map what does he use to interpret his approach?

 

The GPS or an IPAD Mini MAP?

 

For a review renewal you have to demonstrate skills on the TSOd approved Black Box.

 

Not a hand held computer..

 

 

[dsam]

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS???What skills will you get, retain and what will you lose?

You raise an interesting point here.

Steve G, firstly, I am only a VFR pilot, so an IFR pilot's opinion would be welcome here.

Secondly, as you state, an iPad is NOT a TSO'd device, nor should it ever be considered as such.

 

My comments only relate to it being an excellent supplement to "enhance" situational awareness. Old skills and habits with installed TSO'd instrumentation should still apply - especially for IFR (I would think).

 

That being said, I've had consistent and reliable success from my iPad in all circumstances in my Eurofox. Others may need to supplement with externally linked Bluetooth GPS devices with their iPad, due to bad satellite reception within a more shielded cockpit.

 

As for "retaining skills" I suppose I still know how to use a slide rule and log & trig tables, and do long division with pencil and paper - but these days, ...Why! (I'm showing my age here...)

 

Much easier to flight plan electronically - w & b, graphical & current Met, fuel calculations, etc etc, and bring all that into the air with you and then throw in traffic awareness enroute. A quick mental evaluation of the iPad figures shows if the plan calculations are in the right ballpark, otherwise you go back and check what data you entered incorrectly. Pilot responsibility still applies.

 

As an older pilot with old school training, I couldn't be more positive about new devices and the benefits they bring. I'm an old dog that loves the new tricks!

 

Dave

 

 

[Steve G]

Thanks

 

Im with you

 

Brilliant and better than joining maps with sticky tape to draw big long track lines like I just did for trip to Maralinga.

 

I just checked the CAAPS re the Type one devices and shock horror

 

The EFB may be:

 

 hand held but is to be stowed during the following phases of flight;

 

during take-off and landing; and

 

 during an instrument approach; and

 

 when the aircraft is flying at a height less than 1000 feet above the terrain!

 

which means on approach to land and all those low level spots I see on OZRUNWAYS

 

Looks like I need to get approval to mount it and find approved mounts in OZ.

 

I think for flight planning only and the odd map consultation and storing data is the main use as I see it..

 

At $169 per year sure beats paper subs.

 

 

[dsam]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think an iPad knee dock is allowed (mine is on a Velcro strap around my right thigh) - hands free like an item of clothing, life vest, PLB, etc.

 

 

[Steve G]

At this point I'd be focusing on using maps and learning the principles of navigation. Once you have those mastered then take a look at the electronic aids.

A pen a prayer wheel and lapboard were my constant companions for over 5000 hours some of the maps have that many lines on them and 10 mile marker points and pencilled scribble its amazing and from 1987 to 1997 passed ten IFR Command renewals using ERC Low NO DME NO GPS just prayer wheel pencil and ruler doing NDB and VOR navigation in a single engined Cessna 150.

 

Dave Henry suggested I buy an auto pilot and I fitted a SYSTEM 40 wing leveller to the 150 to permit some cockpit relief time. But the first ten years were hands on flying.

 

Now in 2016 fly a Cherokee 14o ifr no autopilot and still using a mostly paper cockpit..plus GNC300XL.

 

 

[Steve G]

Yeah wonder how we find that out?

 

The CAAP talks about approved mounting and does mention kneeboard.

 

Its not rocket science we drive rally cars at 200 km/h with nav roamers and they stay bolted even in roll overs.

 

Maybe check rally shops rally roamers will be better and cheaper than AV kneeboards.

 

 

[DrZoos]

In regards to carrier and ipad versions - using AvPlan late 2015 and all of 2016

 

I have used Telstra, Aldi( which uses telstra) , and optus in most of NE,N and CW NSW....

 

Telstra and Aldi get virtually identical reception and now Aldi is using Telstra's 4G in most areas there is no real difference in speed or reception. In fact a mate and I where in dubbo comparing speeds and on the 4 occasions we tested , I got slightly superior speeds averaging about 41Mbps... optus is good in built up areas and lacking elsewhere in my opinion.

 

In regards to ipad version i had a 3G version and traded it for a wifi only which i now hot spot from my iphone - works perfectly, no need for the ipad to have a separate plan and and cost...

 

The only consideration when doing it this way is you need to diligently manage two batteries prior to take off. Although the phone running its hotspot uses little battery with the screen off.

 

After over 12 months on AvPlan and previously over 12 months on OzR, I like AvPlan a lot more than I did at first, but i still found OzR much more intuitive for rapidly smacking a plan together in mid air when everything changes...

 

They are both excellent products and you cant go wrong with either...

 

Hope this helps some...

 

 

[Robbo]

You would need an external bluetooth gps if you have wifi only and that would be a 3rd battery

 

 

[DrZoos]

I have a dual gps, but dont need to use it... didnt even take it to dubbo with me... its deadly accurate as is ,

 

Correction its a 3G model running no sim card

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I have a mini ipad 4 with a sim using AvPlan. I'm very happy with the hardware and software. The sim is on a Telstra prepaid plan which costs $50 for twelve months for 5 gig. I only turn on the data if I need to enroute. Most times I can update and plan using wifi. I find it very easy to use AvPlan enroute and to make changes as required. It is also very easy to input plans to Naips. I suspect that we get attached to the system we use first. I have used OZrunways and found it a little cumbersome but that's probably because I am not as familiar with it as I could be. My mini Ipad lives on my leg in the plane and I consider it safely stowed there for landing and takeoff.

 

For the person who posted earlier and has to swipe the map manually to stay on the page, I think you will find both systems have a moving map mode where the aircraft stays in the middle. AvPlan certainly has.

 

Both systems and hardware are brilliant and great planning tools. Display brightness greatly affects battery life. I find closing the cover when not needed saves a lot of power. A cheap backup battery or cigarette lighter socket with USB insert keeps it going far longer that I can.

 

I would say that you should be doing most of your learning about your system when not flying. When flying, keep your head out of the plane as much as possible and use the features of the system you are familiar with.

 

I did lots of planning at the desk, used the user manual to clear things up and the best tool for learning was comparing notes with fellow pilots. It's amazing that almost every body could contribute some neat feature that others had not yet picked up on.

 

 

[DrZoos]

In regards to battery in avplan you can set the screen to dim after X minutes and brighten when tapped, i find this feature brilliant

 

 

[Robbo]

The sharing of maps is awesome, I can download every single map at home and then airdrop it to a mates ipad in seconds, saves him having to download all the maps from the interwebs.

 

 

[Steve G]

In regards to carrier and ipad versions - using AvPlan late 2015 and all of 2016I have used Telstra, Aldi( which uses telstra) , and optus in most of NE,N and CW NSW....

 

Telstra and Aldi get virtually identical reception and now Aldi is using Telstra's 4G in most areas there is no real difference in speed or reception. In fact a mate and I where in dubbo comparing speeds and on the 4 occasions we tested , I got slightly superior speeds averaging about 41Mbps... optus is good in built up areas and lacking elsewhere in my opinion.

 

In regards to ipad version i had a 3G version and traded it for a wifi only which i now hot spot from my iphone - works perfectly, no need for the ipad to have a separate plan and and cost...

 

The only consideration when doing it this way is you need to diligently manage two batteries prior to take off. Although the phone running its hotspot uses little battery with the screen off.

 

After over 12 months on AvPlan and previously over 12 months on OzR, I like AvPlan a lot more than I did at first, but i still found OzR much more intuitive for rapidly smacking a plan together in mid air when everything changes...

 

They are both excellent products and you cant go wrong with either...

 

Hope this helps some...

Hi

 

I need to know how you paired any phone with an IPAD

 

I have an AIR and a MINI 4 with wifi and also have an N70 Nokia which has a data allowance and it would solve my airborne problem

 

OK on east coast coverage

 

Yes we know.

 

Out here west of the black stump/Grampians garriwerd no such luck

 

I think they ran out of money and despite the maps its no joy

 

Interesting talking with FLIGHT SOLUTIONS by email in USA and how we get OZERWY traffic and he was flabbergasted that we would use a carrier to get traffic

 

Steve says

 

Here in the States you lose most 4G / cellular connectivity at about 1000' AGL, which would make it difficult to update via the VFR traffic sharing feature.

 

My mate in Telstra planning laughs at me and says that 4G works with deliberately downtilted aerials are for road use land use not air use.

 

I wonder what happens when you drop the ipad below the windows on the plane, whether you get signal drop out??

 

Anyway if it works why bag it.

 

Hope to hear from you re pairing to an ipad from a phone..

 

 

[Robbo]

That is a very ancient phone and won't have a hotspot.

 

You need a smartphone to do the hotspot pairing.

 

How to Share Your Smartphone’s Internet Connection: Hotspots and Tethering Explained

 

 

[coljones]

HiI need to know how you paired any phone with an IPAD

I have an AIR and a MINI 4 with wifi and also have an N70 Nokia which has a data allowance and it would solve my airborne problem

 

OK on east coast coverage

 

Yes we know.

 

Out here west of the black stump/Grampians garriwerd no such luck

 

I think they ran out of money and despite the maps its no joy

 

Interesting talking with FLIGHT SOLUTIONS by email in USA and how we get OZERWY traffic and he was flabbergasted that we would use a carrier to get traffic

 

Steve says

 

Here in the States you lose most 4G / cellular connectivity at about 1000' AGL, which would make it difficult to update via the VFR traffic sharing feature.

 

My mate in Telstra planning laughs at me and says that 4G works with deliberately downtilted aerials are for road use land use not air use.

 

I wonder what happens when you drop the ipad below the windows on the plane, whether you get signal drop out??

 

Anyway if it works why bag it.

 

Hope to hear from you re pairing to an ipad from a phone..

Try JoikuSpot WiFi - right down the bottom Symbian OS - Nokia N70 - Best of luck

 

 

[DrZoos]

HiI need to know how you paired any phone with an IPAD

.

You need two things...a phone capable of hotspotting eg most things from about iphone 5 onwards era

 

A network provider and plan that allows you to hotspot to other devices...

 

Note my correction above... my ipad works because it does have a built in gps, it just has no sim card in it... its actually 3G capable , i just dont use it that way

 

My previous ipad had no gps and i can run it using a dual gps, and hotspotted from my phone for data...

 

4G in Aus seems to work well to about 7500 feet although we have had reception at 8500 on Saturday...

 

A warning the more devices you have, the more issues you can have... one ipad with data and gps will undoubtedly wok more often and have less battery issues than 3 devices providing the same service...

 

Having raved on about all that, I do love not paying for ipad data, and i get a way better deal when i'm buying one big plan instead of two smaller plans.

 

 

[DrZoos]

My set up is an iphone 5s....i go in to settings>Personal Hotspot>on

 

Then on ipad I go setting>wifi>my iphone(whatever you named it ), then enter password you set in phone for the hotspot

 

Walla it works perfect, iphone gets 35-40Mbps

 

and ipad gets around 7-14Mbps when hotspotted

 

That is tested on fast.com

 

 

[Karl]

I've have been using ozrunway since I started flight training some 4 years ago and have become very familiar with it.

 

I have just this week upgraded the software in my Dynon Skyview to the latest version and attached the Ozrunway Hybrid VFR map to the Skyview

 

After a bid more (but not enough) research I purchased the Skyview wifi dongle to down load flight plans from Ozrunway to Skyview by Wifi.

 

I got the idea it could be done after I seen above page on the Dynon website.

 

I just got conformation from Ozrunway that they don't support wifi connection to Skyview

 

Now I do believe that Avplan does support this and if I get conformation of this I will change to Avmap when my Ozrunway runs out.

 

I'm not looking forward to learning a new EFB, but having a Dynon Skyview auto pilot the Wifi feature would be very handy.