Risk to Mogas availability?

[K-man]

From Shell ...

 

Are 'Shell Unleaded E10' and 'Shell Unleaded contains up to 10% ethanol' the same product?

 

Yes. The branding simply reflects the maingrade fuel offered at the particular site. For example, sites that offer a choice between regular Shell Unleaded and Shell Unleaded blended with ethanol will have ‘Shell Unleaded E10’ as their branded ethanol blended product, denoted by the green nozzle. Sites that only offer ethanol blended fuel as the maingrade 91 octane product will be branded ‘Shell Unleaded Contains up to 10% ethanol’, denoted by the yellow nozzle.

 

 

 

 

 

Can I use ethanol blended petrol in marine, ultra-light aircraft, or two-stroke engines?

No. Shell Unleaded which contains up to 10% ethanol should not be used in boats, jet skis, ultra light aircraft or other equipment without first consulting the manufacturer.

http://www.shell.com.au/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/shell-unleaded-with-ethanol/faq.html

To give a background to the composition of the fuels ...

http://www.colesexpress.com.au/shell-fuels.aspx

 

If it ain't on the label, there shouldn't be ethanol.

 

 

[K-man]

Caltex have a similar site ... (Can't copy it)

 

http://www.caltex.com.au/LatestNews/Pages/NewsItem.aspx?ID=12510

 

but again, the pumps should be labeled if there is ethanol in the fuel.

 

 

[Maritime_Ev]

Caltex states on their website that only their E10 labeled fuel contains Ethanol. http://www.caltex.com.au/LatestNews/Pages/NewsItem.aspx?ID=12510

 

Obviously, that won't mean much if a franchisee is mixing up the fuel with something else, but then that would be a pretty risky thing to do (if only from a legal liability point of view).

 

Still might be a good idea to check, does anyone know where you can buy a testing kit in Australia? I can only find them in the US online (where ethanol doesn't need to be labeled on bowsers).

 

 

[dazza 38]

What makes you think Caltex fyel is better. It is all up to the owner of the servo.

Because Caltex Guarantee that there is no ethanol in their fuel unless it is labelled E10 ect. If you put non ethanol fuel in your motorbike or boat or numerous other engines that cannot run on a ethanol blended fuel and the engine is damaged due to ethanol being blended in it. Sue them for damages.

Caltex on their own web site says that they are aware that some engines including some motorbike engines, chainsaws, vehicles ect cannot use ethanol blended fuel. Hence they label their bowsers. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No labels on the pumps at the Safeway Caltex service station I visited yesterday.

 

Vortex 98 claim - cleans your engine as you drive, but no statement on the PDS

 

Vortex 95 makes the same claim, but no statement on the PDS

 

Unleaded, not even a PDS that I could find.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I believe the test is as simple as adding water but I don't know how to read it.

 

 

[01rmb]

Ethanol but not petrol will mix with water so to determine if ethanol is present in the petrol do the following:

 

• In a long thin bottle, make a thin permanent line about a quarter of the way from the bottom.
   
   
  
• Fill with water to this line, then fill to the top with petrol.
   
   
  
• Shake, and let it stand.
   
   
  

 

 

If the water is now above the line there is ethanol present in the petrol.

 

A real problem with ethanol fuels are that they absorb water from the atmosphere. This is a real problem for boats with obvious quantities of water around or aircraft in high humidity environments. Left for any time in a vented tank the ethanol in the fuel will suck up water like a sponge resulting in engines trying to run on water.

 

Also, it is basically a solvent that will eat away at any seals or fuel lines. All bad news and has no part in anything I use.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I keep hearing these stories of fuel degradation but I havent seen this from personal experience. My chainsaws can have six to 12 month old 2 stroke fuel in them and all I do is top the tank with fresh fuel without removing the old fuel even up the the ratio of 3/4 old fuel and 1/4 new fuel and they start no worries and run like a dream.

Yup, same, having bikes and racing MX all my life, fuel sits in drums for months and I've never noticed any worthwhile degradation. Really old super used to evaporate a bit and go redder in colour as the die didn't evaporate, but as yourself, I never threw it out, just topped up the drum.

 

I have found the greatest risk of long term sitting is water build up on the bottom of your drum or tank, drain it and 1/2 cup metho cures that.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You haven't been fuelling in Australia for a while Bex? I have a couple of motors out of action.

 

 

[dazza 38]

No labels on the pumps at the Safeway Caltex service station I visited yesterday.Vortex 98 claim - cleans your engine as you drive, but no statement on the PDS

Vortex 95 makes the same claim, but no statement on the PDS

 

Unleaded, not even a PDS that I could find.

Yes but you're in Victoria. In QLD the pumps have to be labelled IF they contain ethanol.

 

 

[K-man]

I don't know where you guys get bad fuel. Australian law says it must be labelled if it contains ethanol.

 

At service stations

All pumps dispensing ethanol blend petrol must clearly display one of the following:

 

• the words 'Contains up to x% ethanol' (where x is no less than the percentage of ethanol in the petrol); or
   
   
  
• the words 'Contains y% ethanol' (where y is the percentage of ethanol in the petrol).
   
   
  

 

 

At other places of retail supply

 

If an ethanol blend is supplied other than from a service station, the buyer must be given a document that prominently includes the same words as above that must be displayed for ethanol blends sold at service stations.

 

If the buyer is present when the ethanol blend is supplied, the words must appear on each container of ethanol blend so that the words can easily be read by the buyer.

 

http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/ethanol-e10

This is Federal law, not State law.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

I'm not sure how 10% ethanol can "damage" a motor. It (ethanol) raises the detonation point ie., raises the octane rating. it is agroscopic so there's no water sitting on the bottom of your tank corroding it away..I saw it mentioned that it's a solvent. I know you can thin epoxy before it's cured with methanol, apart from that it's about as good as Turps as a solvent. It will make some rubber types gooey but will not affect efi tubing ect.I have a motorcycle mag which explains why you have to change old caby floats and tubing of 60's bikes. ...Can anybody inform us how a motor is actually damaged by it?.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

I haven't heard of any damage to the engine combustion area.

 

I have heard of plenty of carburettors which have been unrepairable, and have two myself.

 

What happens is that the ethanol forms a jelly-like residue which gets into the carburettor jets and air galleries.

 

It's a particular problem in agricultural/stationary/chain saw engines, where the carby manufacturing process involves drilling, then pressed assembly, making it impossible to get a cleaning wire into the orifice. When the residue dries out compressed air won't shift it.

 

I had to write off a complete Rotary Hoe, because I couldn't get a new carby. I even tried going to the extreme of boiling the carby in water for 30 minutes

 

 

[jetjr]

Lots of problems with 95 and ethanol fuels with hoses, carbs and pumps.

 

As TP says, clogging of internal ports from fuel deposits, keeps a few small engine guys in business around here.

 

98 does not have the problem but really does degrade quickly.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I'm not sure how 10% ethanol can "damage" a motor. It (ethanol) raises the detonation point ie., raises the octane rating. it is agroscopic so there's no water sitting on the bottom of your tank corroding it away..I saw it mentioned that it's a solvent. I know you can thin epoxy before it's cured with methanol, apart from that it's about as good as Turps as a solvent. It will make some rubber types gooey but will not affect efi tubing ect.I have a motorcycle mag which explains why you have to change old caby floats and tubing of 60's bikes. ...Can anybody inform us how a motor is actually damaged by it?.....

My KTM mechanic told me not to use any fuel with ethanol in it because it can cause a hole in the pistons.

That is good enough for me.

 

 

[facthunter]

Ethanol will cause leaning of the mixture, as you need more of it for the oxygen already calibrated. so a surplus of oxygen exists. Regarding the water in it bit, that can be an advantage. If you got a lot of water in a tank the usual fix was, after draining a few times, to use metho to dissolve the water, and then drain the metho. Ethanol in fuel will absorb water up to a certain level and then it is saturated and the surplus water stays at the bottom of the tank. While the water is absorbed it will just be carried through the system or drain with the fuel. It would tend to remove the water that forms from condensation. Nev

 

 

[Scotty 1]

Still might be a good idea to check, does anyone know where you can buy a testing kit in Australia? I can only find them in the US online (where ethanol doesn't need to be labeled on bowsers).

 

I bought a test kits from a marine shop a few years back ( I think they were from Mercury). Can't find them now but might pay to check.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Ethanol will cause leaning of the mixture, as you need more of it for the oxygen already calibrated. so a surplus of oxygen exists. Regarding the water in it bit, that can be an advantage. If you got a lot of water in a tank the usual fix was, after draining a few times, to use metho to dissolve the water, and then drain the metho. Ethanol in fuel will absorb water up to a certain level and then it is saturated and the surplus water stays at the bottom of the tank. While the water is absorbed it will just be carried through the system or drain with the fuel. It would tend to remove the water that forms from condensation. Nev

All good science.

 

Now how would you feel about a lump of thick jelly trying to squeeze through the float valve, or part of your fuel line moving up the tube, just as you are about 200 feet on full throttle TO.

 

I had that effect in an outboard this summer - it was OK at idle, but that's all.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

ok , so ethanol/petrol does not actually damage the engine, raises the octane rating, BUT can cause the engine to be damaged as a secondary effect. ...IF you have an ethanol proof fuel delivery system then no harm should come to your engine. ( like my car) I realise that freezing ect can rear it's ugly head, but that should become obvious if/when it happened........I was concerned as I regularly use 95 octane and that could, accidentally, become contaminated with ethanol..Maybe too small an amount for my ethanol/water check....

 

 

[K-man]

Well I've spent a bit of time researching this and I reckon a lot of it is a load of bollocks. For starters Rotax are specifying that E10 fuel is ok in its motors.

 

• Rotax aircraft engines are approved for use with Ethanol 10 fuel, MOGAS and AVGAS.
   
   
  

 

 

http://www.brp.com/en-au/engines/rotax-aircraft-engines

So, for my Rotax, that's good enough for me.What I did find is a political bunfight that seems to be to do with guys in the U.S. Not liking their petrol changed and the big farmers planting heaps of corn to produce ethanol.

 

But let's look at the facts. Using fresh fuel with ethanol doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere. The problem arises if more water gets into the tank. In years gone by we were advised to add some metho to our petrol tank to get rid of any water in the system. In our aircraft we don't have that problem because we do fuel drains to ensure there is no water. So where do we get extra water? Condensation in the tank would probably be number one. We keep our tanks full so no problem there. We have fuel caps that are less than satisfactory in that if the aircraft is outside in rain we get a small amount (might be 10ml) in the tank. That comes out with the fuel drain. If we were using E10 and we had 20 litres of fuel in the tank, again no problem even if it was all taken up by the ethanol. Apparently it will take up to about 0.6% extra water before precipitating out. In 20l that would be 100ml of water if my math is correct. If I was getting that much water in my tank my biggest concern wouldn't be fuel, and of course, if it does precipitate out we still pick it up with the fuel drain.

 

You can read everywhere that ethanol might cause damage and I think the motor manufacturers are saying don't use it just in case. But I reckon if Rotax don't see an issue I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, not that I intend using 95 octane fuel anyway.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't believe the ethanol is all the problem. There are a lot of weird things put into fuel, (aromatics and some are very toxic). Almost anything that will burn, and also bacteria lives in there too. It's a real problem in Avtur where additives are added to kill it. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

A real problem with ethanol fuels are that they absorb water from the atmosphere. This is a real problem for boats with obvious quantities of water around or aircraft in high humidity environments. Left for any time in a vented tank the ethanol in the fuel will suck up water like a sponge resulting in engines trying to run on water.

Also, it is basically a solvent that will eat away at any seals or fuel lines. All bad news and has no part in anything I use.

Too much water dissolved in the fuel will also 'wash' away some of the lubricant from the cylinder walls and will lead to excessive engine wear.

 

 

[dazza 38]

My KTM mechanic told me not to use any fuel with ethanol in it because it can cause a hole in the pistons.That is good enough for me.

I have been reading the KTM web site and it say up to 10 % ethanol is ok BUT reading the adventure bike forum, heaps of peeps are having problems with fuel with ethanol in it has caused the fuels filters to become damaged as well as fuel lines swelling up and becoming u/s.