29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

[pmccarthy]

Those numbers from TP are really alarming. He said

 

All vehicles - 593/17 million - 1 per 29,000 vehicles

 

All drivers, Heavy Rigid Trucks - 74/326,000 - 1 per 4,400 trucks

 

All drivers, Articulated trucks - 108/91,000 - 1 per 842 trucks

 

All pilots, RA aircraft - 12/3500 - per 292 aircraft

 

But articulated trucks (for example) would be on the road for (I guess) 300 days a year while the average RA aircraft is in the air 50 days a year. So the articulated truck fatalities are something like 1 per 250,000 operating days while the RAA fatalities are 1 per 15,000 operating days (and the RAA day is only an hour or so).

 

So RAA flying is at least sixteen times MORE DANGEROUS than driving an articulated truck, which is the most dangerous transport category. I think that regardless of what freedoms people might argue for, something profound is going to happen to us very soon, whatever we wish for.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well I'm wondering about all these deaths. Where is the list? I've been flying at Gawler for 46 years and haven't seen any fatality.

 

There has been no fatality at the airfield or from a flight originating there in that time.

 

We must have quite a good safety culture, but I can't say I've noticed it much. We certainly don't have people being officious about it.

 

By far the most dangerous thing I do is being forced to fly too low over the Adelaide Hills, and this is forced on me by the "safety " authorities. For no reason anybody can bother trying to explain to me.

 

I reckon the less they interfere with us the safer we would be.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Well I'm wondering about all these deaths. Where is the list? I've been flying at Gawler for 46 years and haven't seen any fatality.

I'm not sure that's a very good argument. I've never seen a truck fatality and I drive on the road all the time. Is the alleged rate of truck fatalities suspect?

 

 

[facthunter]

Truck fatalities suspect?. Since it is under the spotlight from many aspects I would say LESS likely than some others. Medical misadventure would take it out at about 11,000 deaths per annum in Australia. Pilot's use checklists but Surgeons are too clever to need them. When will they get real? Theatre resource management, bring it on. Learn from a proven situation in aviation. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

I'm not sure that's a very good argument. I've never seen a truck fatality and I drive on the road all the time. Is the alleged rate of truck fatalities suspect?

I have seen more than enough for both of us.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Truck fatalities suspect?. Since it is under the spotlight from many aspects I would say LESS likely than some others. Medical misadventure would take it out at about 11,000 deaths per annum in Australia. Pilot's use checklists but Surgeons are too clever to need them. When will they get real? Theatre resource management, bring it on. Learn from a proven situation in aviation. Nev

All sadly true, fly a aircraft unlicensed and kill someone- You will go to gaol.

 

Operate without the right qualifications or just be plain negligent and kill a heap of patients or say remove the wrong limb or remove their clitoris without permission and you have a very low chance of even seeing a court. Manslaughter and even murder by Doctor is a daily occurrence- but always the patients fault. They were sick afterall.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

On the basis of one death a month in Australia, we should have seen about a dozen deaths at Gawler in my time there.

 

Yet there has not been one. Perhaps the gliding culture has helped, but the deaath a month figure is still about double what I would have suspected and so I wonder if hang gliders etc have been snuck in.

 

And while I'm sure you guys are right about doctors, I am uncomfortable with the thought of trying to police them.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I wouldn't be the one to suggest John doesn't know the difference between an RA aircraft and a hang glider.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some of the more enlightened surgeons have proposed copying aviation methods for many years now. There's bullying etc going on too. CCTV is being suggested. We used to have cockpit tyrants too till standard operating procedures became normal. You have theater Tyrants in medicine. It's about time they became accountable. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

The country would be a much safer place if CASA directed its efforts towards hospitals rather than aviation.

 

 

[SDQDI]

The country would be a much safer place if CASA directed its efforts towards hospitals rather than aviation.

Woah dj, it's hard enough getting a hospital bed now without CASA shutting them all to keep us safe:stirrer:

 

 

[dutchroll]

Truck fatalities suspect?. Since it is under the spotlight from many aspects I would say LESS likely than some others. Medical misadventure would take it out at about 11,000 deaths per annum in Australia. Pilot's use checklists but Surgeons are too clever to need them. When will they get real? Theatre resource management, bring it on. Learn from a proven situation in aviation. Nev

Interesting reading your thoughts on surgeons at various times.

My wife is a surgeon. It's not so simple as it seems, though your points on "CRM" are valid and there is a concerted effort in parts of the medical world to play catchup on that. There are actually checklists for things like equipment, but surgery cases can be so dramatically different from each other (e.g., a knee replacement in a fit 60 year old versus a knee replacement in a morbidly obese 60 year old ain't the same thing!) that one-size-fits-all checklists would not work like they do for aircraft types.

 

 

[dutchroll]

All sadly true, fly a aircraft unlicensed and kill someone- You will go to gaol.Manslaughter and even murder by Doctor is a daily occurrence- but always the patients fault. They were sick afterall.

Bullsh*t.

 

 

[facthunter]

Dutch I'm not saying one checklist will fit all but no doubt there are times during a procedure where a check of things completed and ready would be prudent. I'm only reacting to calls from within the profession. I know one surgeon who operates on two people at once. I had an experience with a Dentist who did two chairs at once and guess what. He removed the wrong tooth. When your face is numb you can't be sure what is going on. I didn't find out till I got home. Every time I have a procedure done I emphasis which SIDE with the anaesthetist or anyone I can get to talk to.

 

Professional pilots become a pain in the @r$e as a result of being precise about what they want, but that's why the are safe. If they say gear up they don't want flap up. Happened a few times but not to me. Nev

 

 

[AVOCET]

Are we now trying to tell the Med pro's ??

 

I can see the day when you rock up for a knee job , and the Doc says , do it yourself , to much risk ,

 

 

[alf jessup]

Sorry Avocet,

 

But can't help it, what answer will I give to the doc if I turn up for a hand job? he will probably tell me too risky + you probably have given yourself 1000's over the years lol.

 

What options do I have then ?

 

Alf

 

 

[AVOCET]

Alf , im gong in three weeks to have right knee done ,

 

I also need micro surgery ony Right hand , seems a problem after the prang !

 

Thats another year ill have to sit around and dream about flying , all the while keeping every thing registered and current !

 

Mike

 

Pity party over .

 

 

[turboplanner]

Let the medical industry take care of it's risks and any failures; criticising them or giving them advice is not going to help recreational aviation.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

The medical compared to aviation situation is both similar in a few situations and different in the vast majority.

 

The biggest difference is that in aviation situations when you do something a result occurs. If you do that same thing again in the same situation the same result will occur......... every time.

 

In medicine ( all specialties) not just surgery when you do the same thing in the same scenario ....... different things happen.

 

Do the exact same thing again and a completely different third outcome can happen. For many many reasons some people get better, some people get worse.

 

Many many things can change the path despite everything being done right.

 

In aviation you are not allowed to take an unairworthy aircraft up. In medicine these days I guess, less than half of our patients would be considered airworthy if they were a plane. We could cut the bad outcome rate immediately by going back to 1970 s or 1980s rules for treatment. No surgery for over 70 year olds at all. Got a hernia? Wear a truss for the rest of your life.

 

As an example I have just finished anaesthetising for a bariatric surgery list. Fat people having weight reduction surgery. High risk because obesity causes all sorts of problems. My last patient - a 55 year old 150 kg adult male with severe heart trouble ( each beat only pushes out 45% of what it should) he has poorly controlled diabetes and doesn't even check his own sugars ( never done a single self check though at least daily is the expected standard of self care). He has moderately severe lung trouble, drinks to excess and smokes.

 

There is no algorithm or checklist for doing this sort of patient - and since so many things could go wrong there is no possibility that one could be devised.

 

That is the major problem of checklists in medicine. No published checklist fits the situation or the patient. They are all a basic checklist that has to be modified.

 

But we do use some checklists but in reality they are limited to the equivalent of preflight checks, minor in flight stuff like count the instruments ( check three greens).

 

Which is not to say that the are not problem doctors ( just as there are problem pilots).

 

I am chairman of a committee whose job is to oversee doctors in my hospital and weed out problem doctors and I have to say that the sentiments expressed here are sometimes sadly more right than you can imagine.

 

My committee ( and myself) has had to abandon attempts to have several doctors deregistered or at least have their credentialing in the hospital removed because of the hospital administration would not back us up - they see both the loss of revenue and the highly likely situation that the doctors involved will sue the hospital for loss of income. As the doctors involved wee elderly surgeons the hospital just hopes they will retire before they cause too much trouble.

 

But I have to say that those situations are far far less to blame for bad outcomes than good doctors doing the right thing and despite the best care and diligent management sometimes s..t happens and more to the point in today's incredibaly unhealthy society ..... you can't polish a turd.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

On the basis of one death a month in Australia, we should have seen about a dozen deaths at Gawler in my time there.Yet there has not been one. Perhaps the gliding culture has helped, but the deaath a month figure is still about double what I would have suspected and so I wonder if hang gliders etc have been snuck in.

And while I'm sure you guys are right about doctors, I am uncomfortable with the thought of trying to police them.

I don't quite understand your logic here, is Gawler the only location where you think recreational aviation takes place?

 

 

[turboplanner]

He is just being colourful as usual, which wastes our time.

 

In this case, there is no reason that an airfield with a tight safety regime, and good training shouldn't have a negligible fatality rate - even nothing over decades.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

rhysmcc, colourful I can live with, time-wasting also, but not innumerate. If you work out the arithmetic of what I have said, it comes down to Gawler amounting to a small percentage of Australian rec aviation. 12 fatalities in 46 years is what I reckon would be our fair share of 29 in 29 months based on a guess at the relative number of flights. One a month for 46 years comes to 552, and I said our share should have been about 12. Yes I know the 552 has not been claimed, we are just doing some ballpark estimation here.

 

Sorry if you hadn't read my previous posting, I must admit to skipping things too.

 

Best wishes for your surgery Mike, I reckon they are pretty good at that stuff these days, but a good luck wish can't hurt.

 

 

[biggles]

As an example I have just finished anaesthetising for a bariatric surgery list. Fat people having weight reduction surgery. High risk because obesity causes all sorts of problems. My last patient - a 55 year old 150 kg adult male with severe heart trouble ( each beat only pushes out 45% of what it should) he has poorly controlled diabetes and doesn't even check his own sugars ( never done a single self check though at least daily is the expected standard of self care). He has moderately severe lung trouble, drinks to excess and smokes.

 

 

 

Mmm , we are told that we must be non - judgemental about these things , however some don't seem to realise the consequences of their actions , or non actions , regarding a responsible attitude toward their own health. I admire you Jaba and your professional colleagues , for showing the compassion that you do, often in difficult circumstances .... Bob

 

 

[dutchroll]

Very well said Jaba.

 

The point being that there are actually many people in the medical world trying to make sure that "best practice" is standard practice and unfortunately this is not readily apparent to a lot of the public. You are totally right of course about "unairworthy patients" too! Not detracting from those who are genuinely unfortunate or whose bodies have genuinely "let them down", but half the hospital patients these days are there for surgery because they've spent a lifetime trashing their own bodies without even a whiff of care.

 

All this stuff happens in aviation too. We got rid of a couple of (major airline) pilots a while back who got away with repeated very bad violations of various types. The company tried to sack them several times and was thwarted legally on each occasion until they finally ran out of lives. I'm not even going to relay some of the stories of how they behaved in the cockpit, otherwise you'll never catch a plane anywhere again. However we do have a lot of systems in place to try to catch these types and weed them out, which GA and RA does not have the resources for.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Sorry Bruce, i must have missed the evidence of X number of deaths per flying hours and the fact Gawler has Y amount of hours a year.

 

29 deaths in 29 months is just that. On average over the past 29 months we have had 1 death a month. Unless you look further into the stats you can't claim it not to happen because you haven't had any at your local airfield.