29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

[M61A1]

I'm certainly not implying any specific number of onstructors Alf, but Certificate IV in Training is a key safety item which is missing.There are also clusters of incidents and clusters of accident types to be investigated.

I'm legally responsible for work I did 20 years ago and so are they right now. GA has a system which is different.

We've been through this before....a Cert IV in anything is just a box ticking exercise. Especially if it's in training.

I live in a world full of Cert IV qualified people, and since the introduction of that type of training, the standard of those qualified has dropped significantly (since it's introduction). I have several Cert IV's myself, I consider them useless, but my employers demand them.

 

Cert IV does not provide safety, all it provides is a legal paper trail for someone to blame someone else. eg: "it's not my fault...I wasn't taught it that way" or "it's not my fault...his Cert IV said he had the correct competencies".

 

 

[Teckair]

A BFR is a review not a test, a couple of commercial pilots in the US stalled a commuter turbo prop then pulled back on the controls killing a heap of people.

 

Fatigue was blamed for that not who ever did their BFRs.

 

 

[facthunter]

Can we leave your personal observations of what I love to do, aside and stick to the facts?. There's is nothing personal in expressing a view. You keep talking about the same legal issues that amount to the sky falling in for us all as we are all going to be sued till we are in a state of abject poverty. If your line of reasoning is the only way, there really isn't a future. I talk about flying safely and enjoying it, and if CASA dictate what we do on their behalf then they take responsibility for the result, and indemnify us. (as they are by the Government under their individual terms of tenure). Nev)

 

 

[turboplanner]

We've been through this before....a Cert IV in anything is just a box ticking exercise. Especially if it's in training.I live in a world full of Cert IV qualified people, and since the introduction of that type of training, the standard of those qualified has dropped significantly (since it's introduction). I have several Cert IV's myself, I consider them useless, but my employers demand them.

 

Cert IV does not provide safety, all it provides is a legal paper trail for someone to blame someone else. eg: "it's not my fault...I wasn't taught it that way" or "it's not my fault...his Cert IV said he had the correct competencies".

It's voluntary. If you don't like it, don't agree with it, don't want to use it to help protect your position, that's up to you. Other people might take more precautions.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You keep talking about the same legal issues that amount to the sky falling in for us all as we are all going to be sued till we are in a state of abject poverty.

BS, I have never said the sky is going to fall in on all of us; just those who are negligent and haven't covered themselves; and I've provided the precedent case several times.

I've also said I have no problem living with the legal situation we have today. You've never addressed the current era, just keep talking about the old prescriptive legislation which was superseded around 25 years ago.

 

If CASA dictate what we do on their behalf then they take responsibility for the result, and indemnify us.

Well that's been your assertion, but I've never seen ANY paperwork or references from CASA to that effect, maybe you could give us a reference.

Many activities, rules etc within RAA are not specified by CASA, as you would expect from a self administering operation, so wouldn't apply to this myth anyway.

 

 

[jetjr]

It hurts a little, but I agree with TP, a Cert 4 in education and training is required to offer training.

 

Yes its a box ticking exercise for many, Also seen some who found the course tough.

 

Ive known plenty of very qualified people not be able to explain how to make coffee They can perform detailed and complex tasks themselves but cant get the message across.

 

I still find the most dangerous student is one who says they understand but in truth doesnt.

 

 

[M61A1]

It's voluntary. If you don't like it, don't agree with it, don't want to use it to help protect your position, that's up to you. Other people might take more precautions.

Sure it's voluntary, like tax. In order not to have it, you are forced to live excluded from society. It maybe a legal requirement, but it doesn't produce the best outcome. When the legal requirement is more important than turning out quality pilots or tradespeople, the system is broken.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sure it's voluntary, like tax. In order not to have it, you are forced to live excluded from society. It maybe a legal requirement, but it doesn't produce the best outcome. When the legal requirement is more important than turning out quality pilots or tradespeople, the system is broken.

With 29 deaths in 29 months, what's your low cost alternative?

And how are you going to stop the dependent families from suing you, which is their right?

 

 

[M61A1]

With 29 deaths in 29 months, what's your low cost alternative?And how are you going to stop the dependent families from suing you, which is their right?

And that is what is wrong with the system......when a pilot goes out flying and makes a fatal mistake , that's his/her fault, it is up to the individual to make the appropriate arrangements for their families support in case of their demise. It shouldn't be made someone else's problem. We are all aware that our hobby, while not necessarily dangerous, is very unforgiving. It's not just the case with flying either, I have seen ridiculous lawsuits against people, who in reality, played no part in the demise of someone, but have lost everything having to defend themselves.

If you believe that's a good, fair system, then no wonder we've got problems.

 

 

[bull]

I don't think you are expected to be responsible for things that changed after you trained the person, but the person doing the lastest BFR is (provided that was after all changes).Wherever there's a wheel FH, you love putting a spanner in it, but I recently provided a statement to lawyers in a liability case which went right back to 1974, so don't kid yourself, plaintiffs will go through a lot of people and a long timespan if there was a duty of care involved.

Whatever your definition of a stall and whether to pilot has to put the aircraft in a stall or whether he is so incompetent that he pulls the stick back trying to maintain height, and it drops to the ground and spreads out in a number of pieces, something is wrong somewhere. Sure the pilot should know about stalling, and if he didn't then the question is who had the duty of care for that.

Hey Turbo do you think that the air france pilot that held the stick back and crashed into the ocean killing hundreds needed a certificate 4 or his instructer as i think qualifications to fly an airbus would include that dont you ,,what a joke.......

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Shouldn't the skills you are looking for in a Cert IV already be included in what's required to train and gain an instructors rating?

 

If a court or lawyer was to ask what certification a particular instructor has, surely the answer would be an instructors rating issued by the governing body (i.e. RA-AUS or CASA)?

 

 

[facthunter]

We don't elect or in any way have power over the CASA. If we act for them under their authority, why would we accept the liability THAT entails. You would have to be nuts. Every action against us would involve CASA if we lost it or didn't have the resources to defend it.. They would be the next in line in those matters.. Anyhow they still owe us money. There should be question of that not being paid. The whole situation is unsatisfactory and can't continue as it is. There has to be some surety RAAus will be there tomorrow and the day after etc.and be able to function with certainty. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

At the risk of being repetitive and yet suggesting some positive action, I have read that 90% of road accidents are caused by the 10% most stupid people on the road. This is true in my personal experience.

 

We could seriously drop the road toll with an IQ test, culling out the bottom 10%. But this is politically unacceptable. Is this relevant to flying? Personally I think it is on the basis of the only 2 flying fatal crashes I have been close to.

 

How could we implement this for the roads? I suggest a theory exam would do it. The bottom 10% are almost innumerate.

 

I'm not as sure about extending this to flying, because the dumbest flyers are a lot smarter than this. Here's an area which needs some research, but alas the notion is nasty and elitist and not politically correct.

 

 

[M61A1]

At the risk of being repetitive and yet suggesting some positive action, I have read that 90% of road accidents are caused by the 10% most stupid people on the road. This is true in my personal experience.We could seriously drop the road toll with an IQ test, culling out the bottom 10%. But this is politically unacceptable. Is this relevant to flying? Personally I think it is on the basis of the only 2 flying fatal crashes I have been close to.

How could we implement this for the roads? I suggest a theory exam would do it. The bottom 10% are almost innumerate.

 

I'm not as sure about extending this to flying, because the dumbest flyers are a lot smarter than this. Here's an area which needs some research, but alas the notion is nasty and elitist and not politically correct.

Not sure I agree. I think temperament may be a better guide to what you're dealing with. I've many intelligent people do dumb things when in control of a machine.

 

 

[dazza 38]

With all this talk of suing, I am going to put all of my assets into God's name. So good luck suing God if you can find him, hell, good luck finding if he/ she even exists.

 

If anybody tells me that he doesn't exist, I can simply say that he talks to me when I pray and he told me I can used all of ' his' assets until I cark it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Shouldn't the skills you are looking for in a Cert IV already be included in what's required to train and gain an instructors rating?

No reason why it couldn't be.

 

If a court or lawyer was to ask what certification a particular instructor has, surely the answer would be an instructors rating issued by the governing body (i.e. RA-AUS or CASA)?

Yes, and the plaintiff's lawyer knows it misses some of the Cert IV component.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We don't elect or in any way have power over the CASA. If we act for them under their authority, why would we accept the liability THAT entails. You would have to be nuts. Every action against us would involve CASA if we lost it or didn't have the resources to defend it.. They would be the next in line in those matters.. Anyhow they still owe us money. There should be question of that not being paid. The whole situation is unsatisfactory and can't continue as it is. There has to be some surety RAAus will be there tomorrow and the day after etc.and be able to function with certainty. Nev

We don't act for them, we act for us.

 

Cry all you like with the same old story, but the freedoms that were granted came with the same strings that other sporting bodies have been working with for many years. Even the CWA and Bunnings sausage burners found a way to get formal training, certification and insurance.

 

 

[M61A1]

We don't act for them, we act for us.Cry all you like with the same old story, but the freedoms that were granted came with the same strings that other sporting bodies have been working with for many years. Even the CWA and Bunnings sausage burners found a way to get formal training, certification and insurance.

And that is why there are so few of those these days....regulated out of existence. It's not just a RAA problem, it's everyone's.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...We could seriously drop the road toll with an IQ test, culling out the bottom 10%. ...

Bruce you need to do some research on IQ tests. They were popularised by the Yanks as a cheap way to categorise massive numbers of military recruits. The tests were a blunt instrument at best. Yes, they won the war, but how many smart people were prevented from achieving their potential because of a standard paper exam?

What is intelligence? There are many different types. I score pretty well in most written tests, but that has little bearing on my ability to concentrate for long periods or react to emergencies.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Before anyone slits their wrists and gives up all hope, just consider free legal opinion received from unqualified people via the Internet is usually worth what you paid for it.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Shouldn't the skills you are looking for in a Cert IV already be included in what's required to train and gain an instructors rating?If a court or lawyer was to ask what certification a particular instructor has, surely the answer would be an instructors rating issued by the governing body (i.e. RA-AUS or CASA)?

The Cert IV gives one the knowledge how to train however there are trainers and trainers or instructors and instructors.

 

It al depends how one utilises this knowledge is how successful they are as teachers.

 

One must be ever mindful how the students are grasping and digesting the knowledge or what they struggling with in their own world.

 

For an example:- Nearly everyone in this world does not go out to do things incorrectly, I have seen them treated as dills what is needed here follow the steps through and discover why they arrived at that situation most of the time it is an incorrect interpretation. There is one dill here and it is not the student.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yes Old Koreelah, the IQ test sure is a blunt instrument. Maybe we could do better with simulator tests, they will soon be good enough to do an engine failure test, but the logistics of arranging a simulator test for everyone are daunting.

 

And I also agree with M61 that attitude is more important, but I don't know how you could measure this before an event. Aren't we trying to find ways to reduce the death rate? Which means getting in before the crash, and a blunt instrument is better than nothing. And a hard theory test would enable those of us who had a good attitude to learn the stuff and appear less dumb than we really are.

 

 

[bull]

Yes Old Koreelah, the IQ test sure is a blunt instrument. Maybe we could do better with simulator tests, they will soon be good enough to do an engine failure test, but the logistics of arranging a simulator test for everyone are daunting.And I also agree with M61 that attitude is more important, but I don't know how you could measure this before an event. Aren't we trying to find ways to reduce the death rate? Which means getting in before the crash, and a blunt instrument is better than nothing. And a hard theory test would enable those of us who had a good attitude to learn the stuff and appear less dumb than we really are.

Why oh why do people think this problem is across the board,,, please RAA aka AUF has been around a long time and the rash of deaths/crashes are increasing with the increased registration rate of LSA,s and HP aircraft with people with the more money attitude to have the best fastest etc etc straight out of the box, without first starting in a little SINGLE seat 95.10 aircraft to build hours and expierience as MOST if not all of the founders of AUF DID and the majority of them are still here, WHY oh WHY cant people honestly look at the problems from the aircraft/operator side of thing rather than bring it on as if ALL of AUF/raa members are in danger ,,,be real people and look at the rash of new HP aircraft in our sport as well as the trikes fromHGFAto RAA as in look at the hgfa accident rates before they could be flown in raa and honestly look at the hours and aircraft involved instead of painting us all with the same brush sheeese.................when i first started flying a gemini in 1986 my instructer said to me ,,you should have at least 100 hours flying in a SINGLE seat aircraft first ,before you even think about taking a passenger up, but todays mentality is ,,i want the best/fastest 2 seat fantastic{with very low total time in the log book} to show off to my mates {and kill them} maybe i,m just too cynical/old and not rich enough to have been bitten by this bug.The hours gained in a single seat with no distractions of yapping to passengers or temptation to do something stupid etc etc also you and i have all had those oh shit i should not have done that moments and with your mates/spouse family members next to you ,you wont really evaluate those moments for what they are, and learn from them as you will cover them up and possibly die from them next time ah,,,,well i have had enough of banging my head against the wall about this so work it out yourselves and dont punish/regulate others for those mistakes made by this culture,and yes before anyone jumps down my throat therehas been a SMALL number of rag and tube ansd single seat accidents but no more then the average for the last 20 years or so,, the majority of INCREASING accidents are hp/low time , check it out yourselves before commenting thanks.......

 

 

[Air Creation]

John.. read many of your writings for longer than I can remember.. always directly driven by safety!

 

Fatalities.. 29 over 29. Not a good image by any standard of safety on the global platform for sport aviation.

 

Australia.. a land of freedom, many aviational rules/regulations with a sad fatality record for our sport.

 

Good to see many comments in this post.. some on track to John's real thread.. some delve into another area.

 

1974 at fifteen, entered the underground coal mining industry apprentice fitter, kite flying, hang gliding as a sport.

 

IMHO: Miners at the face.. DID change the current industry (in ref: OH&S - professional analysis management.. crap)

 

The true respect for unit crew over two decades in the mines has given me many attributes for life... and to be reliably safe.

 

.. story.. May 2015 - RAA Sport Pilot.. Being Reliable.

 

Agree absolute with Frank's post, to grow safely into future years, we must all consider the present Culture, Attitude, Airmanship and Professionalism.

 

Can we represent a proactive result to improve, evolve and reflect an industry of pure best effort practices in sport aviation safety - on a global stadium.

 

The challenge begins now..

 

John, do you know ?: How many trike accidents occurred within the 29 months to make us so dangerous.. compared to other aircraft configurations?

 

Would it be possible to colate statistics of trike accident reports to determine possible similarities ie: trike type, model, or weather, any pilot ability experience skills.

 

Lets make it safer.. so only the 2% of idiots are the ones we need to educate to fly safe.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I can see where you're coming from, Bruce and agree with most of what you say.

 

Elsewhere on this forum it has been suggested that RAAus get more involved in training. This idea has merit and your suggestion of using simulators might fit in here.

 

Our national body might be able to assemble some training resources that few if any FTFs could afford. They could be kept at a central location or shared around the Fly Ins.

 

How do we exit an upturned aircraft if we land in rough or boggy ground?

 

We need a training airframe or two that could be flipped over to give us some preparation for that very real situation.