29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

[frank marriott]

Last time I looked the LP / HP class difference had been removed from the ops manual. Sounds like an argument about a class that no longer exists by definition.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Frank surely in the rest of the GA world most would look at your J230 and think HP....wouldn't they!!

 

 

[Blueadventures]

I was going to bring up this very valid point way earlier but wanted to see how long it would take for someone else to do it.YES this is quite possibly the number one reason why people are killing themselves at this time. Neglect of keeping training up to the same speed as the high speed plastics and the environment they operate in. Not the schools fault or the instructors either they operate within an out dated system they have been supplied with.

Like i have said many many times before GET THE RAAus OUT OF CANBERRA. Set up proper training facilities for both instructors and maintenance training.

We need to have maintenance training courses. When asked at the Old Station flyin about maintenance training the reply was its not up to RAA to give the training; their looking to tafe type courses. The last training for L2 was Clifton some years back and the next 3 locations were canned. GFA meets thier maintenace requirements to the CASA standards with courses and mentoring etc. RAA needs mentoring and training so good maintenance is made. Courses get people together and exchanges skills. The request for drifter maintenance is a good example that if a course could be organised some aircraft could be brought to the course and maintenance performed. Would be good to pass on skills of removing and replacing compents in the different systems, inspections for cracks loose rivets to name a few. Just my thoughts. I will be writing to RAA soon to post in the mag the future maintence training for members and support from RAA. I asked this question at Old Station in May and Michael answered; I also asked same question in writing at AGM throught my local rep Maj.

Cheers Mike

 

Mike

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

And instill an endorsement system for training and costs that reflect the aircraft used,,as in USER PAYS

Hey bull, the crux of most of your posts seem related to costs and money. Maybe it's time to admit that you just can't afford to fly. What about a trip to the hobby shop for a RC 182 kit. No, hang on a minute that will cost in excess of $250 more than annual RA rego. Oh well.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Frank surely in the rest of the GA world most would look at your J230 and think HP....wouldn't they!!

Not in my experience - a J230 compares favourably with basic trainers eg warriors/c172s - 160hp v 120hp - not what I would refer to as high performance aircraft.

 

Certainly a difference between the performance of the Thruster/Drifter styles but not HIGH performance IMO.

 

I guess it boils down to what is being compared to what. To me a high performance single is something that cruises + 150kts.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Last time I looked the LP / HP class difference had been removed from the ops manual. Sounds like an argument about a class that no longer exists by definition.

I agree, there isn't currently a Raa registered aircraft that would be classed as high performance. The only thing that was, was the Spitfire mk26 with the V6 and V 8 engines that should never had been registered with the RAA anyway.

 

 

[bull]

Hey bull, the crux of most of your posts seem related to costs and money. Maybe it's time to admit that you just can't afford to fly. What about a trip to the hobby shop for a RC 182 kit. No, hang on a minute that will cost in excess of $250 more than annual RA rego. Oh well.

Your comment just go,s to show how the hp/ga clan have ruined AFFORDABLE flying for all same reason your sneaky ga mates on the board have changed the logo of safe AFFORDABLE flying ,,,to ACCESSABLE accessable only to the high end of town ah????

 

 

[bull]

Hey bull, the crux of most of your posts seem related to costs and money. Maybe it's time to admit that you just can't afford to fly. What about a trip to the hobby shop for a RC 182 kit. No, hang on a minute that will cost in excess of $250 more than annual RA rego. Oh well.

And check out the new REQUIRMENTS to get your XC endorsment 20 hours of dual xc @ 200 dollars an hour ,,well last time i looked most of the board have not been getting themselves lost and as some of them will say :most learn,t in rag and tube and most solo,ed after 10 hours, and they are still here ,but its alright to charge some young new pilot 2000 dollars to get thier xc ,,wake up ,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

[alf jessup]

Anyone of us could have bought a LP aircraft if we wanted too, I and many others chose to buy what suited us, I had LP as in a trike for 8 years and wanted a change, since when has freedom of choice been a crime? we all have the freedom to do as we please.

 

Everything goes up in price just have a look at the median house prices in this country, wages, food, bills, ect ,everything goes up, aviation has never been cheap but RAA gives us the opportunity if we choose so to have low end GA performance for a fraction of the cost, guess I better go and get rid of my later model cars and get an EH because I was born in that era then.

 

 

[gandalph]

Like i have said many many times before GET THE RAAus OUT OF CANBERRA. Set up proper training facilities for both instructors and maintenance training.

Ozzie, as you've been saying this for ages I guess you have given the issue some serious thought. So I expect you'd be able to answer some of these questions.

 

* Where do you propose the training facilities are set up? I note you said "facilities", so I guess you want several?

 

* What sort of training facilities do you have in mind.

 

* Are you planning to set up in competition with existing FTF's?

 

* And the maintenance facilities, How many of them and where?

 

* And how would they be funded?.

 

* Do you propose selling off the Canberra office building in a very deflated property market and use those funds to set up these facilities?

 

* Would that cover the infrastructure costs?

 

* What about the staffing costs and the ongoing running costs? Where would that money come from. Increased rego fees? (Hold onto your hat Bull!) Fee for service?

 

* That might work if the training was compulsory but with 3000 aircraft do you make the training compulsory for all members or just those have current pilot certificates?

 

* What's that going to do to their annual fees?

 

* What in blazes has the location of the office got to do with it?

 

 

[Keenaviator]

I started out with hang gliders, then onto trikes, then rag and tube 3 axis (GT 400 Quicksilver), then GA then back to RAA (Corby Starlet) and have continued the theme with my now Jabbie. I have recently flown a mate's trike and even though it is enjoyable, have no interest in going back there for my powered flying.

 

I also fly rag (no tube) and love it (paragliding). I got out of GA because of the ongoing cost of running and maintaining (glad I did now with SIDS).

 

If I was financially better off I'd love to have an RV7 or RV4 as my primary powered flying machine. At my current financial status I'm very content with what I have.

 

Laurie

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Anyone of us could have bought a LP aircraft if we wanted too, I and many others chose to buy what suited us, I had LP as in a trike for 8 years and wanted a change, since when has freedom of choice been a crime? we all have the freedom to do as we please.Everything goes up in price just have a look at the median house prices in this country, wages, food, bills, ect ,everything goes up, aviation has never been cheap but RAA gives us the opportunity if we choose so to have low end GA performance for a fraction of the cost, guess I better go and get rid of my later model cars and get an EH because I was born in that era then.

If ya had a ford XW GT 351 you could sell and have a really nice plane. But if I had a GT don't think I sell her

 

 

[bull]

If ya had a ford XW GT 351 you could sell and have a really nice plane.

Doug ,if he had an xw 351 phase two he could afford a 120000 plastic fantastic too ah,,,lol hahahahahah, seriously the costs for a young struggling family man ,or broke fisherman like myself to advance up in their endorsments have risen so much now to the point of Ga training 20 years ago. Now the formation and establishment of AUF was to give the average wallet the chance to enjoy the freedom of flight as well as the doctors son,,this fact seems to be getting forgotten and its very sad as the GA clan would want to keep the magic of flight for the better part of town like GA is .or is that RAA ,hmm not too sure anymore .....................the difference is so blurry i cant really tell them apart anymore.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Bull I was involved in the accessible vs affordable debate. Its my opinion that affordability is merely a single subset of accessibility. If you cant afford it then it isn't accessible to you. However Accessibility is >> than merely affordability. An example, PPG's are very affordable, yet to get in one and learn to fly it, is much more than affordability, first you have to find an instructor that can teach you, then you have to find one that isn't somehow tied exclusively to a brand that you didn't buy.... all those things relate to accessibility. For some parts of Australia where controlled airspace and military requirements mean that enourmous swathes of airspace are off limits to you. Unless someone fights for transit lanes or less restrictive airspace grabs then affordability may not limit you to not being involved, rather the need to drive for 2hrs to get to an airfield that has class G airspace might be the thing that limits your involvement.

 

Making out that somehow we have duded the membership by changing something that was one dimensional into something a bit more holistic is in my opinion misguided. It was never about removing affordability it was more about realising and stating that limitations that exist to prevent growth and uptake are more than cost alone. Although given that success (growth) comes with higher scrutiny perhaps we were on the wrong path anyway!!

 

Andy

 

 

[bull]

Bull I was involved in the accessible vs affordable debate. Its my opinion that affordability is merely a single subset of accessibility. If you cant afford it then it isn't accessible to you. However Accessibility is >> than merely affordability. An example, PPG's are very affordable, yet to get in one and learn to fly it, is much more than affordability, first you have to find an instructor that can teach you, then you have to find one that isn't somehow tied exclusively to a brand that you didn't buy.... all those things relate to accessibility. For some parts of Australia where controlled airspace and military requirements mean that enourmous swathes of airspace are off limits to you. Unless someone fights for transit lanes or less restrictive airspace grabs then affordability may not limit you to not being involved, rather the need to drive for 2hrs to get to an airfield that has class G airspace might be the thing that limits your involvement.Making out that somehow we have duded the membership by changing something that was one dimensional into something a bit more holistic is in my opinion misguided. It was never about removing affordability it was more about realising and stating that limitations that exist to prevent growth and uptake are more than cost alone. Although given that success (growth) comes with higher scrutiny perhaps we were on the wrong path anyway!!

 

Andy

Andy when do you go up against Abbott ,you have the lawyer/polly speak down pat ,well done

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I have a fairly low AUF membership number but these days I like to fly faster and more comfortably than back then. Thousands of Australians are doing the gray nomad thing which doesn't come cheap. A Land Cruiser and a flash van will cost more than just about any plastic fantastic, so what is the gripe? It is like a bloke with an old EH and a tent hanging it on the Land Cruiser set... But why? I don't understand it at all. The arguments seem to be made up to suit a preconceived prejudice, they don't hold water at all.

 

 

[Litespeed]

And check out the new REQUIRMENTS to get your XC endorsment 20 hours of dual xc @ 200 dollars an hour ,,well last time i looked most of the board have not been getting themselves lost and as some of them will say :most learn,t in rag and tube and most solo,ed after 10 hours, and they are still here ,but its alright to charge some young new pilot 2000 dollars to get thier xc ,,wake up ,,,,,,,,,,

Actually at the rates you use thats 20hrs at $200 so $4000. Or are you saying 10 hrs after solo for xc endorsement, then yes $2000.

 

I understand you are feeling the financial pain but do you really think the $10 or so a week for your fees is that big a impost, that it makes it unaffordable for all except doctors sons?

 

I just can't see it being any cheaper than this. The cost of joining a radio control flying club each year is considerably more than this here in Sydney and probably everywhere else. They claim the reason is insurance costs. On that metric we get a incredible deal. The ability to fly a real aircraft legally or a model for more expense. I know which I prefer.

 

 

[bull]

Actually at the rates you use thats 20hrs at $200 so $4000. Or are you saying 10 hrs after solo for xc endorsement, then yes $2000.I understand you are feeling the financial pain but do you really think the $10 or so a week for your fees is that big a impost, that it makes it unaffordable for all except doctors sons?

 

I just can't see it being any cheaper than this. The cost of joining a radio control flying club each year is considerably more than this here in Sydney and probably everywhere else. They claim the reason is insurance costs. On that metric we get a incredible deal. The ability to fly a real aircraft legally or a model for more expense. I know which I prefer.

You are right on the arthmatic ,sorry but i meant 20 hrs of dual flying after doing 20 hrs of basic training, so this adds up to an additional $4000 costs for new members ,or have i read the new {electronic confusing version of the ops manual] wrong................And those rates are what i was charged not more than 3 months ago to do 5 hours of revision after a break of 10 years from flying and this was from a one man ftf with an over 20 yr old rag and tube ,so i,d be amazed if the ftf with the latest fantastic plastic could charge any less,,,please correct me if i,m wrong ,cause then i,ll report this ftf for overcharging thanks

 

 

[alf jessup]

Bull,

 

I understand your predicament as a fisherman as my brother used to be one and its a struggle, I saw it first hand on how hard it was to make a living, he made a career change 5 years back after 15 years fishing in to mining working away 2 weeks on and 1 week off and has sacrificed a lot to try and get ahead as we all do.

 

I have worked in the oil industry for the best part of 20 years and for 10 of those years I haven't been home with my wife and 4 kids as I work away equal time, I have missed birthdays, Christmases , funerals, weddings as you probably have in your field of work. before that I worked shift work for 14 years to make a living

 

Yes I do have a reasonable sort or aircraft as you can see by my avatar, but mind you I have sacrificed a lot of things to get it in the last 20 years.

 

Your still flying Bull and that's all that matters, I hold no prejudice to a rag and tube, to a trike, to a plastic fantastic as every flyer has their own pride and joy they worked hard for.

 

RAA annual fees are cheap compared to a lot of other memberships ie joining the average golf club.

 

Keep flying Bull as it is obviously a passion you share and enjoy like the rest of us.

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

If ya had a ford XW GT 351 you could sell and have a really nice plane. But if I had a GT don't think I sell her

Doug,

 

I have a really nice plane already, if I had an XY GTHO phase 3, it wouldn't come out of the shed as there are too many scoundrels in the world that would nick it.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Doug,I have a really nice plane already, if I had an XY GTHO phase 3, it wouldn't come out of the shed as there are too many scoundrels in the world that would nick it.

I would sell it in a heart beat and buy a collection of cars, motorbikes and aircraft.

 

I might be biased but it is only nostalgia that makes them worth anything or should that be Dementia. They were never really that special and lots of similar period cars from europe were far better and often had 4 or 6 cylinders.

 

I await the knock at the door and a black bag

 

 

[jetjr]

Too many accidents

 

RAA spending too much time on things some dont want like slowing new regulations

 

Magazine now user pays

 

Extra costs for compliance too much

 

Training too expensive and extra time too much

 

All aircraft $120 k

 

Arguments dont add up

 

 

[bull]

 

I would sell it in a heart beat and buy a collection of cars, motorbikes and aircraft.I might be biased but it is only nostalgia that makes them worth anything or should that be Dementia. They were never really that special and lots of similar period cars from europe were far better and often had 4 or 6 cylinders.

I await the knock at the door and a black bag

What speedy no comment on the costs of xc training ,or the rates FTF,s should charge ,seems strange as you seem to have all the other answers..........

 

 

[Litespeed]

:freaked:What speedy no comment on the costs of xc training ,or the rates FTF,s should charge ,seems strange as you seem to have all the other answers..........

Mate I have no more knowledge on the subject than many others or you.

 

I would expect that the rate you quote is a bit expensive but have seem similar and even cheaper for spam cans and plastic fantastic. As for the Xc training it is what it is.

 

I personally am grounded at the moment due to lack of spare cash - so I would love cheaper prices but can't see it happening.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Too many accidents

RAA spending too much time on things some dont want like slowing new regulations

 

Magazine now user pays

 

Extra costs for compliance too much

 

Training too expensive and extra time too much

 

All aircraft $120 k

 

Arguments dont add up

jetjr,

 

Too many accidents- yep through who's fault (pilots in most cases as what you do on your own after being trained to a certain standard isn't your instructors fault)

 

RAA spending too much time on things some don't want- nobody likes change but that's how the world evolves

 

Magazine now user pays- yep agree that's not right

 

Extra costs for compliance- safety has no price on it, obviously some are not doing it right

 

Training too expensive and extra time too much- shop around, some instructors do fleece students, RAA is maybe trying to lift the standard with allocating extra time(who knows)

 

All aircraft $120K- I got a bargain then, don't have to buy new, I didn't but it was like new 180hrs, still buy Jabs for well under a 100K

 

Most arguments do add up depending on how you look at it, hence why we are all different as it would be boring if we were all the same