29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

[fly_tornado]

I honestly expect the flight instructors of the RAA will fight tooth and nail to stop simulators brought into the training regime.

 

 

[Keith Page]

This yelling and yapping about safety --- saying more safety will get rid of accidents, get a grip of yourselves.

 

A safety diet will quite often increase accidents, because safety diets will generated apprehension and indecision.

 

We do not need a new set of rules to fix the situation, how often do we see some "expert" fix a situation with a new rule.

 

Have a read of Air Creation's post #299..

 

There is the complete answer --- mining culture has:- "Given him many attributes for life".. What a beautiful phrase.

 

I can vouch for Air Creation's view because if those fellows do not have a good culture they will be squished.

 

The thing we should be doing is developing culture not safety..

 

Safety just happens to be a by product of culture....

 

(Not Hard).... (Not What We Are Getting Out Of The Office)...

 

Regards,

 

KP.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree Keith, the key is to change the culture so people are more careful, more methodical, accept rules (which must be practical).

 

 

[Keith Page]

Turbo.......Gosh I am pleased to see your comment..

 

You have spelt it out for them.

 

You are correct ---- instead of driving mindless dribble down someone neck, show them the practical reasons why we do things then the penny will drop and they will hand knowledge along to their friends, will go viral. (Simple).

 

We have these super educated members of society who think they know the lot but look about and see which projectory we are on.

 

Thank you Turbo ... Felt like I was bashing my head on a concrete stump and the stump was moving.

 

Just have to get Andy and F_T onside to help us to move forward.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[facthunter]

ft why would you think instructors wouldn't want to employ simulators? At a low fidelity level they are a limited tool but I've never heard an instructor bag them. Nev

 

 

[John Brandon]

John.. read many of your writings for longer than I can remember.. always directly driven by safety!Fatalities.. 29 over 29. Not a good image by any standard of safety on the global platform for sport aviation.

Australia.. a land of freedom, many aviational rules/regulations with a sad fatality record for our sport.

 

Good to see many comments in this post.. some on track to John's real thread.. some delve into another area.

 

...

 

John, do you know ?: How many trike accidents occurred within the 29 months to make us so dangerous.. compared to other aircraft configurations?

 

Would it be possible to colate statistics of trike accident reports to determine possible similarities ie: trike type, model, or weather, any pilot ability experience skills.

In regard to the belief that RA-Aus trikes make up an unduly high proportion of the 29 month fatalities, I have listed below all the RA-Aus accidents that I am aware of:

 

2013

 

1. January 11 - Australian LightWing GR912 near Beaconsfield Tas.

 

2. February 3 - Skyfox CA25N Gazelle Glasshouse Mountains Qld.

 

3. February 6 - Alpi Pioneer collision with power lines near Ouyen Vic.

 

4. February 8 - Murphy Maverick Texas, NSW.

 

5. March 5 - Airborne XT912 collision with water Tuggerah Lakes NSW.

 

6. March 12 - Tecnam P92 collision with terrain (air work) at Kihee Station, Eromanga south-west Qld.

 

7. March 24 - Vans RV12 Lismore, NSW. Control loss during first test flight.

 

8. April 22 - Super Diamond kit-built collision with terrain, Mitchells Island, NSW.

 

9. June 16 - Colyaer Martin 3 collision with terrain near Dongarra, WA. .

 

10. October 5 - Storm 300 collision with terrain near Bundaberg, Qld.

 

11. October 27 - Airborne XT912 collision with terrain, Girraween, NT.

 

12. November 18 - ICP Savannah VG XL collision with terrain (air work) Mungerannie Station, SA.

 

Total 2013 fatalities: 12 pilots plus 2 passengers = 14 persons. Ten 3-axis aircraft (including 2 air work accidents) and 2 trikes destroyed.

 

2014

 

1. April 27 - Airborne XT912 collision with terrain (house) Tyabb, Vic.

 

2. May 16 - Aeropro EuroFox 3K collision with terrain (air work) at Manfred Station south of Ivanhoe, NSW.

 

3. June 26 - Tecnam P96 Golf collision with terrain following outer wing separation and loss of control, Krondorf area near Tanunda, SA.

 

4. July 6 - Morgan Aero Works Sierra 100 home-built Mossy Pt (Moruya) NSW, collision with water following loss of control while a BFR was being conducted

 

5. October 6 - Drifter (Fisher Mk1) collision with terrain private strip at Knockrow, NSW.

 

6. October 8 - ICP Savannah VG XL collision with terrain Wooderson, near Calliope, Qld.

 

Total 2014 fatalities: 6 pilots plus 1 passenger and 1 pilot examiner = 8 persons. Five 3-axis aircraft (including 1 air work accident) and 1 trike destroyed.

 

2015

 

1. January 27 - Karaone home-built collision with terrain near Bulli Tops, Illawarra district, NSW.

 

2. February 10 - a Drifter 582 and a single seat Thruster 503 departed Donnington Airpark Qld for a local in-company flight but failed to return. The wreckage of both aircraft found in close proximity 7 km south of Donnington Airpark.

 

3. April 18 - a kit-built Jabiru 250 crashed near Woolooga Qld.

 

4. May 9 - Lightwing Speed 2000 North Stradbroke Island.

 

5. May 23 - 3-axis home-built (first flight?) near Cessnock airfield

 

6. May 30 - Fasterway PPC crashed shortly after take-off at Theodore south west of Gladstone

 

Total fatalities Jan to May 2015: 7 pilots no passengers. Six 3-axis aircraft plus one PPC destroyed.

 

The total fatalities over the 29 months: 25 pilots plus 1 pilot examiner and 3 passengers = 29 persons. Twenty-one 3-axis aircraft, including 3 air work accidents, plus 3 trikes and one PPC were destroyed/written-off. You will note that only 3 trikes were involved, comprising 12% of the total accidents and trikes comprise around 12% of the RA-Aus register. More worrying, I think, is the three 3-axis aircraft that crashed while conducting stock and station work.

 

Also the RA-Aus management's opinion is that the October 27, 2013 trike fatality I have included properly belongs to HGFA but the coroner's findings persuade me that, morally perhaps not legally, it should be included in the RA-Aus figures. If the RA-Aus management opinion is accepted then the remaining 2 RA-Aus trikes represent just 8% of the RA-Aus fatals during the 29 months. HGFA have had some accidents, most recent being April 11 when two persons were fatally injured near Glen Innes.

 

John Brandon

 

 

[facthunter]

Thanks John. Just a quick look doesn't appear to be getting worse You have to go into it more deeply though. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Keith why would you think I would be offside? I want the toll to be lowered, however I believe that its a complex problem, were it not so it would have been dealt with long ago.

 

However the reality is that if RAAus doesn't do all it can to lower the toll, and CASA judge them as not being proactive in doing so, then CASA will step in and mandate actions/responses. It was always my view, that better we do something and have control over what how and when, than have something imposed on us where the aim of the imposition might be "seen to be doing something" rather than "actually doing something"

 

Anyone who thinks a few lines in a forum will provide the silver bullet is deluded. Nobody sets out to kill themselves, yet we seem to be doing just that, we as a group are in my opinion likely to push the higher side of the IQ average, so don't lack the ability to foresee the possible results of our individual or group actions, yet........ I truly wonder if this is something a psychologist could ponder, I wonder if there is something about pilots mental characteristics that makes us more vulnerable to behaving in a way that leads to Darwin's theory of natural evolution stepping in and judging us poorly on the day!

 

I mean if Im brutally honest about my own mental makeup Im very sure of myself, never wrong...etc etc is that just me, or is that a snapshot of pilots in general? Its rare here, to see someone argue a point and be persuaded to change their view, in fact has it ever really happened in pilot land? If we were truly risk averse as a group then we would all be talking about "when I learn to fly" knowing that would in reality never happen due to the personal risks involved, rather than when I do fly.......I remember a thread on here that suggested that the vast majority of pilots also have in the past, or still do, ride motorcycles...another, if we are honest, risky endeavour.....is that telling...about the makeup of pilots?

 

Andy

 

 

[Keith Page]

There is the answer Andy:- " Quote :- I mean if I'm brutally honest about my own mental makeup I'm very sure of myself, never wrong...etc. etc. is that just me".

 

It is a case of :- This is how I am going to do it and that is it, called complacency.. Factors change from day to day and also from moment to moment.

 

We must compensate for every situation.

 

I think some of the people who after they get their pilot certificate they class themselves as rocket scientists who are bullet proof.

 

Sad to say we must be ever vigilant and have a continued learning programme plus never get complacent.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[M61A1]

There is the answer Andy:- " Quote :- I mean if I'm brutally honest about my own mental makeup I'm very sure of myself, never wrong...etc. etc. is that just me".It is a case of :- This is how I am going to do it and that is it, called complacency.. Factors change from day to day and also from moment to moment.

We must compensate for every situation.

 

I think some of the people who after they get their pilot certificate they class themselves as rocket scientists who are bullet proof.

 

Sad to say we must be ever vigilant and have a continued learning programme plus never get complacent.

 

Regards

 

KP.

In Andy's case, the "very sure of himself", may be tempered by the ability to be brutally honest with himself. Perhaps problems are more likely with a " very sure", without the insight of honesty, sort of attitude.

 

 

[John Brandon]

Thanks John. Just a quick look doesn't appear to be getting worse You have to go into it more deeply though. Nev

I don't have access to the accident investigators reports and other data so I'm unable to go into it more deeply. However I'm sure the operations and safety staff in Canberra will be conducting an extensive examination of all data available and working towards implementing a realistic safety dissemination program without the creation of new regulations.

 

Also, my ophthalmologist has informed me that chronic glaucoma has reached the point that I am now legally blind and extended periods of reading are no longer possible. I prefer to devote the bulk of my available reading time to other interests so aviation related activities are being moved to the back burner.

 

John

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks very much John for the years of work you've done for aviators. Very much appreciated.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Complacency? After the first hundred hours or so we feel proficient and may cut corners in preflights, overlook checklists.

 

Impulsiveness? Doing something on the spur of the moment on a motorcycle might cost you some skin and money. In the air we cannot afford to act on impulse.

 

Preparation? My plane spends much more time being prepared for flight (and repaired afterwards) than it does in the air. It isn't as complex as a Space Shuttle, but it deserves the same level of care.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I received a very sharp wake up call when I did my first RC flight with an Instructor. The preflight took twice as long as I'd ever taken in a real aircraft, and covered some of the most basic things that I'd been taking for granted for years. e.g. I always did a full control movement before takeoff, but had never checked differential aileron etc.

 

 

[farri]

John, Thank you for your informative post #306... Sorry to read about your eyesight.

 

I`ve just gone through John`s post and if I havn`t made a mistake, out of 24 aircraft involved in the accidents outlined, the similar type of aircraft involved, were, 2 Drifters, 2 Savannah, 2 LightWing and 3 XT 912 Trikes! The other 15 aircraft were all individual types.

 

Unless I missed it! I didn`t see anything that would link all of these accidents to a common cause.

 

All the discussion on what needs to be done to improve the situation, is simply that! discussion! A point of view and opinion!... Without the exact cause of each individual accident, I fail to see how a proper strategy can be implemented that will be, truly effective.

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Right at this point where recreational aircraft are becoming noticed in a negative way, this made the "Black and White" segment of the Melbourne Herald-Sun.

 

The channel under the San Remo bridge is problematic, with fast currents and a lot of people. PWCs are banned from the Phillip Island side, and the last thing anyone needs to do is taxy several times through the fishing area. Maybe the guy knew what he was doing, maybe he was a clown.

 

Then, a couple of hours later, I was working in the shed and heard the sound of a (quieter) RA airaft. Being interested I stepped up, looked up, and there above me was what looked like a yellow Foxbat upside down at the top of a loop at about 1500 feet.

 

He was in the non-aerobatic area of the Moorabbin Training area and directly in line with, and at the same altitude as, the Carrum reporting point for inbound traffic which is a flow of aircraft all day every few minutes........and he was upside down in the stream.

 

He managed to pull out at about 800 feet and headed east where he attempted to carry out either a wingover or stall turn to the left, but screwed it up and mushed down into a turn.

 

He then headed south west and did a couple of stalls, then turned east and disappeared towards the Mornington Peninsula.

 

Beggars belief doesn't it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

John, Thank you for your informative post #306... Sorry to read about your eyesight.I`ve just gone through John`s post and if I havn`t made a mistake, out of 24 aircraft involved in the accidents outlined, the similar type of aircraft involved, were, 2 Drifters, 2 Savannah, 2 LightWing and 3 XT 912 Trikes! The other 15 aircraft were all individual types.

 

Unless I missed it! I didn`t see anything that would link all of these accidents to a common cause.

 

All the discussion on what needs to be done to improve the situation, is simply that! discussion! A point of view and opinion!... Without the exact cause of each individual accident, I fail to see how a proper strategy can be implemented that will be, truly effective.

 

Frank.

Correct; with the causes, which only RAA will have will come the clustering and then the strategy to take action.

 

 

[facthunter]

John I just had cataracts done and didn't realise how much my sight had deteriorated. and how important it is to see well. 20/20 in both eyes without glasses now so I'm very happy. I hope they can hold your glaucoma . I thought some things can be done with it, but anyhow I wish you the best, and thanks for your very thorough contributions to the RAAus cause over the years. Much appreciated.. Nev

 

 

[bull]

thank you John ,and all the best.

 

 

[Air Creation]

Appreciate all information you provide to this forum John.. well done.

 

As for trikes.. all 3 noted reports are XT 912 type. Do you know what WING TYPES .. fitted to these machines?

 

Topless type or wired configuration wings?

 

 

[Aldo]

I've now managed to get through all 16 pages on this thread and found lots of comments I agree with and some I don't, one thing I have noticed is the number of people that continue to talk about flying as their hobby, I wonder if this is part of the problem.

 

I wonder if because people see flying as their hobby, subconsciously they do not give it the full attention and due diligence needed.

 

I will use myself as an example.

 

I have over 200 hours so far this year, 60 of those in what I consider higher performance GA singles (145kts+), 20 hrs twin (170kts) 12 of which have been ICUS IF, the remainder in my J230.

 

Considering the above I do get to fly in all conditions and I do consider myself current, I try to maintain +- 50 feet of my chosen altitude, I try to maintain +- 0.5NM of my track and I do evaluate every flight to attempt to ascertain what I could have done better. I treat flying the same was as I treat my job.

 

So again considering the above I believe I fly pretty well (but do I and how do I know one way or the other), the answer is I don't. I dropped by the aero club (where I hire one of the GA singles I fly, retractable CSU) to have a social chat with the CFI yesterday morning, during that conversation he told me that the new club policy around hiring aircraft was that they require a check flight every 6 months, now the little voice in the back of my head says hang on a minute I've done over 200 hrs in 6 months why do I need a check flight, you're just looking for some extra cash for the club, then the real part of my brain kicks in and says this is how I will know if I'm flying well or not.

 

I have no issue with the check flight requirement and if GA is starting to look at the stats and say maybe we should be doing proficiency checks every 6 months then maybe RAA should look at the same process. Yes it will cost me some extra cash (and I'm not a millionaire) but it may well be a way to increase our knowledge improve our airmanship and lower the accident toll, it may keep me alive.

 

I know I will get a lot of negative comments around RAA is supposed to be a cheap, affordable form of aviation and all the proficiency checks will do is increase my costs. I see it as a way for RAA to be pro-active in addressing the negative impact of an ever increasing death toll.

 

You can preach safety till the cows come home and it won't change a thing.

 

Training, knowledge and reviews of our airmanship, motor skills (flying) and the way we approach flying will promote safety more than anything else.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I've now managed to get through all 16 pages on this thread and found lots of comments I agree with and some I don't, one thing I have noticed is the number of people that continue to talk about flying as their hobby, I wonder if this is part of the problem.I wonder if because people see flying as their hobby, subconsciously they do not give it the full attention and due diligence needed.

 

I will use myself as an example.

 

I have over 200 hours so far this year, 60 of those in what I consider higher performance GA singles (145kts+), 20 hrs twin (170kts) 12 of which have been ICUS IF, the remainder in my J230.

 

Considering the above I do get to fly in all conditions and I do consider myself current, I try to maintain +- 50 feet of my chosen altitude, I try to maintain +- 0.5NM of my track and I do evaluate every flight to attempt to ascertain what I could have done better. I treat flying the same was as I treat my job.

 

So again considering the above I believe I fly pretty well (but do I and how do I know one way or the other), the answer is I don't. I dropped by the aero club (where I hire one of the GA singles I fly, retractable CSU) to have a social chat with the CFI yesterday morning, during that conversation he told me that the new club policy around hiring aircraft was that they require a check flight every 6 months, now the little voice in the back of my head says hang on a minute I've done over 200 hrs in 6 months why do I need a check flight, you're just looking for some extra cash for the club, then the real part of my brain kicks in and says this is how I will know if I'm flying well or not.

 

I have no issue with the check flight requirement and if GA is starting to look at the stats and say maybe we should be doing proficiency checks every 6 months then maybe RAA should look at the same process. Yes it will cost me some extra cash (and I'm not a millionaire) but it may well be a way to increase our knowledge improve our airmanship and lower the accident toll, it may keep me alive.

 

I know I will get a lot of negative comments around RAA is supposed to be a cheap, affordable form of aviation and all the proficiency checks will do is increase my costs. I see it as a way for RAA to be pro-active in addressing the negative impact of an ever increasing death toll.

 

You can preach safety till the cows come home and it won't change a thing.

 

Training, knowledge and reviews of our airmanship, motor skills (flying) and the way we approach flying will promote safety more than anything else.

 

Aldo

Aldo, you are definitely doing the right thing to make yourself a better pilot but to improve safety overall, in my opinion, more regulation is not the way to go. Look at the US, they have far less regulation than us, far more crowded skies, far worse weather and do not have a worse safety record. If you personally want more check flights just ask for them. In my experience people who do not follow the rules, who fly in marginal conditions, fly low and do aerobatics when they shouldn't tend not to do this in the check ride. It's not about flying skills, mostly it's about decisions. What the local aero clubs do in relation to check rides is up to them but to make it mandatory for everyone is not the way to go. As others have said, we need to change the culture of aviation in Australia to be more safety orientated and you can't legislate a culture. Don't put up with the cowboys at your airfield and eventually they will have nowhere to go.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Some good points Aldo.

 

Remaining current is important, but many of us get very little airtime. In recent years I spent hundreds of hours building and realised I was letting my modest flying skills ossify. A couple of flights with instructors in different aircraft helped a little.

 

A training approach I picked up yonks ago with the VRA was to have a fair dinkum honest debrief session after each activity. At times a bit like painful group therapy, but it sure is useful when you get told the truth about how crap you performed. Not sure how this could be adapted to flyers, but there is a crying need for it amoung some pilots; maybe I'm one of them.

 

 

[Aldo]

If you personally want more check flights just ask for them.

Happy

 

I'm not an advocate of additional regulation and over the 25+ years I've been flying I've seen a fair bit of change some good some not so good, but you make my point exactly, would I think I need a check flight probably not I would just wait until my next BFR

 

I do agree with your comments regarding culture.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Litespeed]

John,

 

Thank you greatly for all the effort you have put in over the years and recently.

 

All the best mate.