Litespeed Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 After reading John's reply on types involved in crashes- fatal. I have one serious point, and thank John for all his efforts and acknowledge they would be analysed by the head office. But and it is a big butt- None of this is of any use to use the flying community if we have no idea what caused these crashes! Sure they may be many different aircraft types but lessons can be learned from every single one and transferred into our flight practice and overall culture. We really need to know what happened and why in each case, and not have to wait until it goes through a coroners court for every one and the wait again for RAA to analyse them and make some possible recommendation. If we do not have the information we can not improve our individual and collective culture. In which case all these lives are lost in vain. A culture of safe operations demands this. There is a reason the "crash reports" were so loved by pilots as a educational tool- so we can learn form the mistakes of others and hopefully not repeat them. We need this now not at some possible time in the future and in generalised form. This is why I really don't see the RAA is serious about engendering a safety culture. It may be serious about safety in their administrative and thus myopic view but not in the real world culture. Motherhood statements on the website about OH&S- now actually WH&S are just that and completely useless in changing to a more positive safety culture. How many of these accidents had similar human factors for example? How many involved poor maintenance? How many involved unreported and thus unrepaired airframe damage from excess G loading? How many did not do a proper pre-flight? How many were medical causes or pissed or drugged pilots or lack of 12 hours from bottle to throttle or simple fatigue? How many were airframe fatigue? How many were weather related and how ie wind gusts, cross wind landing/takeoff or VMC into IFR conditions? How many were related to poor flight planing or in flight decision making? Naturally most crashes are a complex mix of factors but we Just don't know. The coroner might, CASA might and RAA might but that knowledge and experience from some poor souls demise is worthless unless WE as the flying community know. Every single factor in all of these crashes MUST be available and used for our continued education. And as soon as the information becomes available. The global airline community did not have to wait for a coroner to declare a deranged pilot committed mass murder in the German Wings incident. As soon as the information on balance of probabilities and available evidence made clear what happened, we all new and steps were taken to ensure it would be far less likely to happen again. That is a Culture of Safety. We need change or we will continue to shed tears for pilots and passengers who are now pushing up daises. As a final thought- Why has the RAA as a organisation not contributed to this forum discussion or is that not part of the culture? Another month and sadly another death. It is damn hard to safely soar like a eagle when the Turkeys have their heads in the sand. . 4
turboplanner Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 Good points Litespeed, since the Coroner looks for a cause of death and we need a cause of crash, there is disparity. I doubt that we are going to convince Police investigators to release their brief. So the most likely path is either to get ATSB to investigate every crash, or get some agreement to investigate under their control, and perhaps have them release the public information. The fact that RAA doesn't contribute to this forum is a glaring omission on safety matters and appears to be political. 2
M61A1 Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 After reading John's reply on types involved in crashes- fatal.I have one serious point, and thank John for all his efforts and acknowledge they would be analysed by the head office. But and it is a big butt- None of this is of any use to use the flying community if we have no idea what caused these crashes! Sure they may be many different aircraft types but lessons can be learned from every single one and transferred into our flight practice and overall culture. We really need to know what happened and why in each case, and not have to wait until it goes through a coroners court for every one and the wait again for RAA to analyse them and make some possible recommendation. If we do not have the information we can not improve our individual and collective culture. In which case all these lives are lost in vain. A culture of safe operations demands this. There is a reason the "crash reports" were so loved by pilots as a educational tool- so we can learn form the mistakes of others and hopefully not repeat them. We need this now not at some possible time in the future and in generalised form. This is why I really don't see the RAA is serious about engendering a safety culture. It may be serious about safety in their administrative and thus myopic view but not in the real world culture. Motherhood statements on the website about OH&S- now actually WH&S are just that and completely useless in changing to a more positive safety culture. How many of these accidents had similar human factors for example? How many involved poor maintenance? How many involved unreported and thus unrepaired airframe damage from excess G loading? How many did not do a proper pre-flight? How many were medical causes or pissed or drugged pilots or lack of 12 hours from bottle to throttle or simple fatigue? How many were airframe fatigue? How many were weather related and how ie wind gusts, cross wind landing/takeoff or VMC into IFR conditions? How many were related to poor flight planing or in flight decision making? Naturally most crashes are a complex mix of factors but we Just don't know. The coroner might, CASA might and RAA might but that knowledge and experience from some poor souls demise is worthless unless WE as the flying community know. Every single factor in all of these crashes MUST be available and used for our continued education. And as soon as the information becomes available. The global airline community did not have to wait for a coroner to declare a deranged pilot committed mass murder in the German Wings incident. As soon as the information on balance of probabilities and available evidence made clear what happened, we all new and steps were taken to ensure it would be far less likely to happen again. That is a Culture of Safety. We need change or we will continue to shed tears for pilots and passengers who are now pushing up daises. As a final thought- Why has the RAA as a organisation not contributed to this forum discussion or is that not part of the culture? Another month and sadly another death. It is damn hard to safely soar like a eagle when the Turkeys have their heads in the sand. . Well, pretty much all of your list, except airframe fatigue are human factors type incidents. That should give you a very good idea where the problem is. In regard to Aldo question the "hobby" thing, it just means that there should be no pressure to do anything, because it's just a hobby. We do it because we want to, not because we have to. 1
Aldo Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 Well, pretty much all of your list, except airframe fatigue are human factors type incidents. That should give you a very good idea where the problem is. In regard to Aldo question the "hobby" thing, it just means that there should be no pressure to do anything, because it's just a hobby. We do it because we want to, not because we have to. I agree but this is what I'm saying is the head space you are in because you want to not because you have to and if this doesn't change the thing you want to do may not be available for you to do. If everyone treated their flying hobby like a job i.e. if I don't do this correctly I won't have a job and I won't be able to pay the mortgage the entire thought process changes (human factors is essentially the thought process around something you do). I'm by no means an expert on anything just throwing out ideas to address a continuing problem. Aldo 1
M61A1 Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I agree but this is what I'm saying is the head space you are in because you want to not because you have to and if this doesn't change the thing you want to do may not be available for you to do.If everyone treated their flying hobby like a job i.e. if I don't do this correctly I won't have a job and I won't be able to pay the mortgage the entire thought process changes (human factors is essentially the thought process around something you do). I'm by no means an expert on anything just throwing out ideas to address a continuing problem. Aldo I sort of figured that mindset was a given, I thought that you may have been pointing to the lack of currency, as we fly less than the professionals, generally speaking. 1
Aldo Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I sort of figured that mindset was a given, I thought that you may have been pointing to the lack of currency, as we fly less than the professionals, generally speaking. M61A1 Currency is always going to be a problem as this is recreation and as such we are (generally) only able to do the recreational activities as resources, time and weather permit. I don't know how to solve that problem but checks may help, but here we arrive at the catch 22 situation "if I had the spare cash to complete the checks I would have had the cash to remain current" I for one don't want to see rec aviation out of reach for anyone but I would also like to see a very much reduced incident/accident rate. One way may be have an endorsement/rating for non instructors (with sufficient currency, experience and total hours) to conduct a proficiency check, I'm sure there would be enough experienced pilots around that would give up a Saturday or Sunday to help out their fellow pilots, (no doubt this will open another whole can of worms) the solutions seem to always just out of reach. As I said before I'm just throwing ideas out there. Aldo
Nobody Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 We really need to know what happened and why in each case, and not have to wait until it goes through a coroners court for every one and the wait again for RAA to analyse them and make some possible recommendation. If we do not have the information we can not improve our individual and collective culture. In which case all these lives are lost in vain. A culture of safe operations demands this. I am not sure that we do need to know why in each and every case. What we do need, is to understand the overall trends and then focus on ways of minimizing future accidents. Reading detailed accounts of individual past accidents can lead people to have the "it won't happen to me" attitude. They read the report and there is some deficiency in the pilots decision making in hindsight it is easy to believe that you wouldn't make that same mistake. This reinforces the it wont happen to them attitude. The FAA have publication that discusses poor pilot decision making in the context of 5 hazardous attitudes. They Are: Anti-Authority: “Don’t tell me.” This attitude is found in people who do not like anyone telling them what to do. In a sense, they are saying, “No one can tell me what to do.” They may be resentful of having someone tell them what to do, or may regard rules, regulations, and procedures as silly or unnecessary. However, it is always your prerogative to question authority if you feel it is in error. Impulsivity: “Do it quickly.” This is the attitude of people who frequently feel the need to do something, anything, immediately. They do not stop to think about what they are about to do; they do not select the best alternative, and they do the first thing that comes to mind. Invulnerability: “It won’t happen to me.” Many people falsely believe that accidents happen to others, but never to them. They know accidents can happen, and they know that anyone can be affected. However, they never really feel or believe that they will be personally involved. Pilots who think this way are more likely to take chances and increase risk. Macho: “I can do it.” Pilots who are always trying to prove that they are better than anyone else think, “I can do it—I'll show them.” Pilots with this type of attitude will try to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others. While this pattern is thought to be a male characteristic, women are equally susceptible. Resignation: “What’s the use?” Pilots who think, “What’s the use?” do not see themselves as being able to make a great deal of difference in what happens to them. When things go well, the pilot is apt to think that it is good luck. When things go badly, the pilot may feel that someone is out to get me, or attribute it to bad luck. The pilot will leave the action to others, for better or worse. Sometimes, such pilots will even go along with unreasonable requests just to be a "nice guy." Almost all of the light aircraft accidents fall into a limited number of the categories. My take on the list would be: Factors leading to Fatal Accidents Miss-handled engine failure. It isn't the failure of the engine that causes the accident but the failure to properly respond and maintain control of the aircraft. Continued VFR flight into IMC weather conditions. Stall/spin low to the ground. Technical failure of the aircraft. Johns list above includes 2 fatal accidents on first flights as well as one that may be linked to bowden cable issue. SO the question then is what could you do in your flying to minimize the risk of this happening to you? 1 1
turboplanner Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 A good effort Nobody, and you've probably hit the peaks, but after you've been involved in safety/accident issues for a few years, you realise the subject is very complex, and the fixes need to have considerable breadth from the carrot to the stick to eliminating the risk from the scene of action. Aside from anything else it requires a team of people auditing operations, and that's a special subject in itself. There's no chance of that with the current hands off/pay someone to do the work attitude of the current board, so it would required action by the members. 1
biggles Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I am not sure that we do need to know why in each and every case. What we do need, is to understand the overall trends and then focus on ways of minimizing future accidents. Reading detailed accounts of individual past accidents can lead people to have the "it won't happen to me" attitude. They read the report and there is some deficiency in the pilots decision making in hindsight it is easy to believe that you wouldn't make that same mistake. This reinforces the it wont happen to them attitude.The FAA have publication that discusses poor pilot decision making in the context of 5 hazardous attitudes. They Are: Almost all of the light aircraft accidents fall into a limited number of the categories. My take on the list would be: Factors leading to Fatal Accidents Miss-handled engine failure. It isn't the failure of the engine that causes the accident but the failure to properly respond and maintain control of the aircraft. Continued VFR flight into IMC weather conditions. Stall/spin low to the ground. Technical failure of the aircraft. Johns list above includes 2 fatal accidents on first flights as well as one that may be linked to bowden cable issue. SO the question then is what could you do in your flying to minimize the risk of this happening to you? Nobody , as has been stated ad nauseam by me and others on this site and elsewhere , we really haven't found any new ways to kill ourselves over the past 50 years , we just keep making the same mistakes over and over again , and 98% of those mistakes are related to Human Factors . Presumably all pilots have ticked the HF box ,then maybe the course content needs to be revised to target, more specifically, the main problem areas which are well documented ...... Bob 3
Nobody Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 A good effort Nobody, and you've probably hit the peaks, but after you've been involved in safety/accident issues for a few years, you realise the subject is very complex, and the fixes need to have considerable breadth from the carrot to the stick to eliminating the risk from the scene of action.Aside from anything else it requires a team of people auditing operations, and that's a special subject in itself. There's no chance of that with the current hands off/pay someone to do the work attitude of the current board, so it would required action by the members. But I suspect that given the current situation hitting the peaks would have a significant improvement in the overall accident rate.
turboplanner Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 EVERY little thing has a chance of lodging in someone's brain and preventing an accident, so hitting the peaks is fine. Same with your comments Bob, CASA and RAA people of the day should have their backside put on a barbeque for the pathetic caricature of HF that pilots and instructors sign off on today. 2
Guest Crezzi Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Appreciate all information you provide to this forum John.. well done. Couldn't agree more - thanks John As for trikes.. all 3 noted reports are XT 912 type. Do you know what WING TYPES .. fitted to these machines? Topless type or wired configuration wings? 5/3/13 was a Streak 3 and 27/4/14 was an SST. Not sure about the NT accident - possibly a topless
alf jessup Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 This latest one was a SST according to Richard Tabaka whom I was speaking with in person tonight at Innamincka who was Rays senior instructor
Keith Page Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 Quote Andy post #308:- Anyone who thinks a few lines in a forum will provide the silver bullet is deluded. Unquote. Somewhere to start. However I have been doing some thinking, I think a forum is a very good guide as to the members wishes -- read the wishes and ideas. Digest them and verify them, then take the good ideas and run with them because it is a member's organisation not a board/office management organisation. Because there have been some very good ideas bounced about here yes there has been some rot as well you can put all that immediately in the garbage. It is a member's organisation not a board member's organisation as it was clearly demonstrated with the magazine issue or did the brain wave come from the office? Regards KP. 1
nomadpete Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I am basically against further complicating my flying by having to deal with increased regulation. I have enough difficulty complying with the rules of physics - the ones that I MUST obey in order to go home in one piece after each flight. Agreed, we aviators have not been finding new ways to crash. Nor can regulations force common sense onto people. It is sensible to stay alive! The most important ingredient in safety is the culture of diligence that a pilot needs, to apply his training and behave with a constant awareness of what he/she is doing at any moment. This is what human factors must address. Also, self assessment of skills doesn't work. Why else do we have to pass tests to get a pilot certificate? We need to go up with an instructor from time to time just to hone our skills and to break bad habits. Some of us more than others. But regulations don't tell me when I need it. I THINK I know when I need it. But some types will never admit they're rusty. This is the point where safety culture/HF/peer pressure need to meet in a positive way. That's the silver bullet. 3
bull Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 To all and to Those whom it may concern, My name is Scott Evans 0458912058 [email protected] now i have included these details for anyone who would like to see me percecuted for any or all of my comments.Pertaining to my comments NONE are meant personally to anyone ,but the drive for more regulations and such,if they increase safety and reduce the death rate are seen as the way forward ,,so be it. And ALL flyers be they quasi ga=lite flyers or 95.10 ers like myself should and be seen to be abiding by these regulations . Now the whole business has now degenerated to the point of myself being personally threatened and also effecting the loss of family relations and use of the field i store my aircraft at etc, because others who know that those little regulations about weight are very regularly broken ,but that that is ok so long as no one talks about them seems to me to be a double standard. Maybe i,m wrong and its all in my head etc..So i,am hereby notifing all that i,ll withdraw from all diccussions about AUF aka raa as the heavies have really taken over and the writting is on the wall for the original reason for AUF aka raa in the first place as in safe affordable ultralight flying in Australia My apologies to all whom may have been offended or exposed or whatever by my comments as double standards should not be happening in any regulation of sport of any kind ,and be it what others think, our type of flying is just that SPORT. .So i have a lovely little sports parasol with 503 and recent condition report available for sale now low total hours of 183 hours a/f and engine first come first served at $3000 with radio/and brand new headset no trailer and a sweeter little plane you will not find,as she flys lovely. ,it will be unregistered as of next week as i will not be renewing my rego or pilots certificate with the AUF aka raa anymore as it is now beyond a joke .... Thanks to all for this very good forum and the many many years of fun flying i had had in Australia and the wonderful people i have met{besides some new heavies that have just come on the horizon}And i hope that all may continue to enjoy your sport without having to resort to getting an RPL as this will kill the silly buggers at raa that have lost thier way so all being said this will be the last rant you will have to endure from "bull" on all matters about raa,{i,ll still have a laugh on the NES though lol}thanks
ev17ifly2 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Hey bull, don't be in such a hurry in selling you beaut little AUF plane and giving up flying before you consult with someone who can surgically remove that chip(s) off your shoulder. Don't go we will miss you
farri Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Bull, Everyone has something to contribute here and that means you also!... Cheers, Frank. 1 2
01rmb Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I have spent 20 years involved in another high risk recreational activity - deep wreck diving on rebreathers using mixed gases. A number of people I knew personally and a large number I knew from internet forums have died over this period. This is very similar to the recreational aviation world where month on month there has been another death and another group/personal soul search of what happened and how it could have been avoided. Typically with a lot of 'it would never happen to me'. Several years ago there was survey in the technical diving world that asked would you dive if you had a problem with one of your redundant systems - and the failure of this component in itself was not going to kill you. Of the people who said they would still dive - over 80% of them were dead within 7 years. These were very experienced and capable people but in saying they would still dive with a known problem highlighted the fact that they were more willing to take risks and it was taking one risk too many that eventually killed them. So, would you fly if everything was not perfect or you are not comfortable with the number of small risks? Weather a little bit cloudy with potential to close in; wind a little bit strong/variable or cross winds at aircraft/personal limits - now and several hours later when you get to your location; last light cutting it a bit fine; engine running not quite right; last service several months ago; fuel been sitting in the wing for a few weeks; amount of fuel a bit close to the limit needed for the flight; aircraft loaded a little heavier than manufacturers specification - or even just heavier than normal; feeling a little weary from a cold or lack of sleep; feeling distracted by events at home/work; one beer too many the previous night; taking medication - prescription or over the counter; flight longer than normal; not flown for a few weeks; aircraft not used for a few weeks; different aircraft than normally used; new destination airfield; time constraints that must be met; feeling rushed getting to the airfield or getting airborne; too complacent with check lists or pre flight planning; keep trying to land rather than go ahead and try again; or any number of other risk factors that on their own may not be a problem but when compounded could become a major problem. Call it human factors, if your personal risk management strategy is such that you will call it a day and leave your aircraft in the hangar until you can fix the problem or the conditions are better then you are going to stand more chance of living and not have your decisions discussed on an internet forum such as this one. It is not going to prevent all deaths but taking the time to consider the risks and avoiding the 'she'll be right - I can handle it' attitude, will lead to a reduction in the number of 'collision with terrain' epitaphs on the last entry in the log book. Remember flying is a hobby - we can always come back next week but only if we don't die today. 3 5 1
fly_tornado Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Bull, please write an article about your experiences selling your plane and submit it to the magazine
bull Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Bull, please write an article about your experiences selling your plane and submit it to the magazine No thanks FT as i wont be able to read it on the dunny ,cause thats the only place it should be now......................{in case you runout of paper] 1
facthunter Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 That's why they (The magazines) are thick and shiny. (They don't take $#!t from anyone). Nev 2
Aldo Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 That's why they (The magazines) are thick and shiny. (They don't take $#!t from anyone). Nev Commonly known as John Wayne toilet paper, rough, tough and don't take s#$t from no-one
Aldo Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Bull I don't always agree with what you say (for no other reason than I look at things from a different perspective or what is relevant to me) but I do read and take on board your point of view. I hope you are feeling a little better with things than you were this morning, hope you have a good weekend. Aldo 1 1
bull Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 BullI don't always agree with what you say (for no other reason than I look at things from a different perspective or what is relevant to me) but I do read and take on board your point of view. I hope you are feeling a little better with things than you were this morning, hope you have a good weekend. Aldo Thanks Aldo i,m feeling better but my plane is still for sale and i,m not gunna fly anymore under the raa banner or comment on raa policy or related issues but i,ll still have a laugh every now and then, thanks 2
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