29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

[Russ]

Bull ol son.........issues / topic, that's ok. But mate.........not attack the man "personally". You won't get brownie points.......from any here.

 

 

[bull]

Bull ol son.........issues / topic, that's ok. But mate.........not attack the man "personally". You won't get brownie points.......from any here.

Sorry about that and yes i was out of line ,but was just firing back to being called a TROLL when discussing a matter that is of concern to many members , and Asmol sorry mate, nothing personal meant and i hope you continue to fly for many many more years yet to come ok.

 

 

[coljones]

Your list of aircraft explains your reasoning fully............mister GA {probably with a bad ticka too}

Actually I went the other way. RAA >> GA. But the majority in RAA and staying that way.

 

 

[gandalph]

Geez Mods! Lost your blue pencils??

 

We've seen blokes here sin binned for less. No Oscars for some of these rants.

 

 

[K-man]

Bull, you have one good point. The guys flying aircraft like yours paved the way for what we have now. You see no need to change to bigger and better aircraft and that is fine. There are others here who fly a range of aircraft and others again have moved from rag and tube to plastic fantastic. The beauty of RA is it covers a huge slice of recreational flyers.

 

I probably wouldn't even be flying if it wasn't for RA. The affordability of RA and the aircraft available was why I elected not to go GA. For me there was no need. If it wasn't for the affordability I wouldn't have flown all over Australia. RA has given me a most enjoyable retirement.

 

Now you said that in your membership you are paying for people like me to fly into places like Tullamarine. Well, perhaps that's an exaggeration. I think the landing fee would preclude most of us from landing there. But CTA endorsement is very useful if you want to fly down the East coast. Sure you can avoid CTA but that entails flying over some pretty hairy terrain, especially in marginal weather. So now I am getting my endorsement to fly in CTA. By the time I finish it will have cost me about two Grand I'd reckon, with medical, ASIC and having to learn to fly a GA aircraft so I can fly it into controlled airspace to get the endorsement. Your contribution to my coffers as an RAA member ... big ZERO.

 

But the real question is ... why? Why couldn't RAA have given me a CTA endorsement? The answer is simple. We would have had it years back. It was about to happen when John McCormack turned up and pulled the pin. I have my understanding of why and it pretty much relates to the unprofessional behaviour of a small number of our members. Privileges don't necessarily cost a lot of money to introduce and maintain, but lack of privileges or loss of privileges can be expensive.

 

I hope you continue to enjoy flying your aircraft as much as I will continue to enjoy flying mine.

 

 

[Teckair]

Geez Mods! Lost your blue pencils??We've seen blokes here sin binned for less. No Oscars for some of these rants.

Interesting how some think they are in a position to tell others what to do.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well There's just about enough ammo already for our enemies. Re read and think about it. Nev

 

 

[gandalph]

Sorry if my post offended you Teck. I didn't think I was telling anyone what to do. I was simply drawing attention to what some could perceive as a lack of uniformity in action taken by the powers when the posts get personal and nasty. Others have been suspended for that. Are you reading too much into it I wonder?

 

 

[Teckair]

Sometimes people reckon the mods should act when things don't go their way and I don't always think the mods are fair but they have minds of there own.

 

I can understand Bull's point of view and plenty of people have had a go at him.

 

I have been in the AUF/RAAus since the early days and have seen it transform from affordable for the average person to what it is now where we have 100 hourlies and maintenance releases. Having people who don't know what they are doing maintaining 100 kt plus aircraft and taking unsuspecting passengers flying is just plain risky, unsustainable and open to litigation. Recently someone rang me wanting to off load their flying school, and I told him I was thinking of shutting mine down as it becoming all too much trouble.

 

This reinventing the GA wheel is a bad idea and it is no wonder people like Bull don't like it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well Teckair, you and people feeling the same pinch will have to do more than let steam off here if you want the board members of RAA to turn the organization from the big-time corporate path they are on now.

 

As much as bull has let fly a few times, I'm still to see the hard evidence that rag and tube is being squeezed out. You can still buy new ones at very affordable prices, you can still fly around the local areas with them, and you don't have the hidden costs which are hitting the 100 kt brigade as they try to do cross-country and machines, and with training which was never meant for it.

 

 

[Teckair]

Loosing the magazine = fee increase. I do not believe managing the 100 kt brigade is the same cost as more affordable aircraft which means I think these people are supporting the 100 kt brigade.

 

Well Teckair, you and people feeling the same pinch will have to do more than let steam off here if you want the board members of RAA to turn the organization from the big-time corporate path they are on now.

Quite correct, in fact I have given up on it as the situation is mob rule.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Let's say the membership right now is the 10,000 often quoted.

 

How many actually bother to vote, the last figure I saw being about 300?

 

And where is this mob which rules.? How many of this 10,000 are in your accused list?

 

The actual problem is that way too many people who do have a financial interest in the sport surviving and prospering are just too lazy, and couldn't care less what happens.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

compulsory voting would fix the lack of interest in the RAA direction wouldn't it?

 

 

[turboplanner]

It would, because although many may not bother to do their homework, a few thousand will.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Although there has been some drift in this thread, I am impressed with the number of posts which have taken John's statistics seriously and given some thought to reducing the toll, so just a recap:

 

1. The fatality toll currently stands at 29 killed in 29 months, is well beyond a statistical fluctuation, and is getting worse rather than better.

 

2. The trail of this is lawsuits and in the following thread starting around 34:20 you can hear the President making it clear that safety has to be improved when he says "Over the last 12 months we've had a number of claims made against us that, if any of those actually eventuated, a single claim could sink us."

 

3. The fallout of this is public and Industry perceptions of the sport, and the photo below shows a new arrival at the Victorian Country Fire Authority's Melbourne training facility,

 

unmistakeably a recreational aircraft, complete with "Spamco" brand engine/aircraft. There aren't any Cessnas or twins there, so that tells me the RA toll has drawn some new attention.

 

 

I agree with the President; he has identified a verf important key to the Association's long term future. Drop the toll and the lawsuits drop accordingly, and there is more time to

 

get the toll down even further.

 

 

[Teckair]

And where is this mob which rules.?

It is the majority of people who want the style of aircraft which we now have.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What, 20 or 30 out of 10,000?

 

 

[bull]

Well There's just about enough ammo already for our enemies. Re read and think about it. Nev

So should we hide the TRUTH or as RAA keep saying we should be more transparent. And address the problem from honest areas as in,, most of these 29 deaths in 29 months ,exept the townsville midair ,are HP aircraft!!!!!!!!!.

 

 

[facthunter]

The point I'm trying to make Bull, is the whole show is visible to anyone who wants to make US look poorly. Plenty visit this site. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

Let's say the membership right now is the 10,000 often quoted.How many actually bother to vote, the last figure I saw being about 300?

And where is this mob which rules.? How many of this 10,000 are in your accused list?

 

The actual problem is that way too many people who do have a financial interest in the sport surviving and prospering are just too lazy, and couldn't care less what happens.

would it have anything to do with yrs and yrs of certain board members, mismanaging, deceipt, nepatism, christ i could go on........so good folks / members just had a gutfull, and voted with their feet, and pay their yearly dues as required.

 

My money is on this scinareo..

 

 

[Litespeed]

So should we hide the TRUTH or as RAA keep saying we should be more transparent. And address the problem from honest areas as in,, most of these 29 deaths in 29 months ,exept the townsville midair ,are HP aircraft!!!!!!!!!.

Really? I thought it was 2/3rds from trikes. So how are they classed as high performance?

 

Show us your stats.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Been quite a few trikes involved with fatalities I am hearing and I wouldn't class them as HP, my old trike was involved in a fatality but it wasn't the trikes fault, it flew perfectly up until it stalled turning final, trike flew in to a windmill in the dark killing 2, wasn't the trikes fault, drifter took a wing off up Casino way killed 2, been a fair share of rag and tube people killed in the 29 months, or are we not classing a trike as a LP rag and tube because that's what they are made of.

 

Most of all these accidents have not been the fault of the aircraft, peoples attitudes need to change, the aircraft is only an extension of the person controlling it, HP or LP

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

would it have anything to do with yrs and yrs of certain board members, mismanaging, deceipt, nepatism, christ i could go on........so good folks / members just had a gutfull, and voted with their feet, and pay their yearly dues as required.My money is on this scinareo..

I was going to bring up this very valid point way earlier but wanted to see how long it would take for someone else to do it.

YES this is quite possibly the number one reason why people are killing themselves at this time. Neglect of keeping training up to the same speed as the high speed plastics and the environment they operate in. Not the schools fault or the instructors either they operate within an out dated system they have been supplied with.

 

Like i have said many many times before GET THE RAAus OUT OF CANBERRA. Set up proper training facilities for both instructors and maintenance training.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I suspect the aircraft class is a complete red herring..... The vast majority of fatalities of recent times have been human factors...

 

Now Bull, if I understand him correctly, contends that the faster end of the spectrum at 120kts is presumably about 70kts faster than the pilots ability and hence they are checking out left right and centre.....which sounds plausible until you understand that there isn't a speed limit attached to age or health, rather if we are brutally honest its attached to how up to date you are with respect to hours spent in the cockpit in recent times.

 

Furthermore that problem isn't only an issue with high performance aircraft its as valid with low performance aircraft that have their own unique problems as well...for example have an EFATO on a slow high drag aircraft when you have the nose high, then best you don't hesitate in getting it down, if you do hesitate, then the plane will do it for you, possibly with a wing drop as well!

 

How can I make that claim? we'll as a form of generalising, our instructors fly the most hours of our members, yet to me seem to be the least represented in our fatality figures. If it was just a function of speed kills, or as Bull asserts the faster end of town are killing themselves, then given that the vast majority of instructors also fly those same aircraft shouldn't they also be representative in our figures? Can anyone even remember the last instructor that killed themselves in a human factors related incident? Im sure it happens, just not very often for some reason......

 

Andy

 

 

[bull]

I was going to bring up this very valid point way earlier but wanted to see how long it would take for someone else to do it.YES this is quite possibly the number one reason why people are killing themselves at this time. Neglect of keeping training up to the same speed as the high speed plastics and the environment they operate in. Not the schools fault or the instructors either they operate within an out dated system they have been supplied with.

Like i have said many many times before GET THE RAAus OUT OF CANBERRA. Set up proper training facilities for both instructors and maintenance training.

And instill an endorsement system for training and costs that reflect the aircraft used,,as in USER PAYS