Discussion document, Deregulation of Pilot Licensing in UK

[Phil Perry]

This is an interesting discussion regarding the deregulation of Pilot Licensing for owners of single occupant (SSDR ) type aircraft. Part of a regulatory simplification programme by the CAA to remove unneccesary red tape from users of smaller aircraft. ( I don't for one minute want to see a lack of pilot training by the way,. . . .)

 

If you open the link, look on the right hand side, and under the yellow Sonex picture, there is another link discussing the removal of PPL medicals. . . .

 

ukga.com/news/view?contentId=35264

 

We ( pilots AND the industry) have been saying for years that a CAA AVMED Class 2 medical certificate requirement to hold a PPL is not neccessary, and a simple statement from your own medical practice should sufficient for those wishing to fly G.A. / Ultralight / LSA aeroplanes, since your own doctor has all of your medical records, and will be quite aware if you have a medical condition like epilepsy, angina, severe type 1 diabetes, or any other condition which could cause incapacitation whilst flying.

 

The CAA seem ( on the surface anyway ) to have actually LISTENED to the industry and pilots and appear at least, to be discussing methods of reducing the standards, which are, to be honest a bit too high at the moment, ie,. . .logically speaking, if you are medically fit to drive a motor vehicle at 70 miles per hour on a busy motorway, surrounded by 40 tonne trucks, then there really is no reason to have a medical to allow you to fly a small aircraft ( I KNOW where I feel safer. . . by a long shot ) In the UK, new driving license holders ( no medical required at all ) can immediately drive a 3.5 Tonne tail lift van on any road, and if you were licenced prior to 2012, you can drive up to 7.5 tonne vehicles ( but not for hire or reward )

 

If this discussion document produces some fruit, then the only real losers will be the small army of CAA Approved Avmed physicians, who charge an astonishing range of fees to applicants to get that certificate.

 

My last one was £195.00 for the medical, and a further £37.00 to the CAA for the electrocardiogram, which is connected to them online from the Doctor's office at the time of the examination, rather like a vehicle MOT testing station ! ( and over sixty years of age, this is required every twelve months. . .) a bit daft if you have no medical history of cardiac problems ? But I feel sure the poor old Doctors can make up for this small loss of easy money, by moonlighting doing Private boob jobs in an NHS hospital @ fifteen grand a throw. . .( ! )

 

 

[old man emu]

This link works:

 

http://ukga.com/news/view?contentId=35658

 

It seems that aviation regulatory bodies are being convinced that if car drivers can use a country's roadways with a simple medical clearance from the doctor who regularly cares for their health, then they are medically fit to operate an airplane in uncluttered skies.

 

Mind you, the doctors won't end up on street corners with a begging bowl. I had a medical to obtain a heavy vehicle driver's licence and it cost me around $180, and that medical was similar to the one for a Class 3 pilot's licence. It seems that it is only RAA-Aus certificate holders who don't need to fork out for a medical.

 

The stupidity is that I can go to a flying school at Camden and jump into a Jabiru 160 with RAA registration and fly it without a medical, but if I want to fly its sister shop which has VH- registration, I have to do a jig before an approved aviation medicine doctor.

 

OME

 

 

[red750]

Be careful comparing getting a pilots licence or RPC with getting a driving licence. I n Victoria at least, getting a full licence can take up to 4 years, including 120 hours driving under supervision for under 21 year olds, progressing through learners permit, probationary licence 1, probationary licence 2 to full licence. Rather than list all details here, this link takes you through it.

 

https://www.keys2drive.com.au/requirements/vic.aspx

 

Note: No reference to a medical.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

This link works:http://ukga.com/news/view?contentId=35658

It seems that aviation regulatory bodies are being convinced that if car drivers can use a country's roadways with a simple medical clearance from the doctor who regularly cares for their health, then they are medically fit to operate an airplane in uncluttered skies.

 

Mind you, the doctors won't end up on street corners with a begging bowl. I had a medical to obtain a heavy vehicle driver's licence and it cost me around $180, and that medical was similar to the one for a Class 3 pilot's licence. It seems that it is only RAA-Aus certificate holders who don't need to fork out for a medical.

 

The stupidity is that I can go to a flying school at Camden and jump into a Jabiru 160 with RAA registration and fly it without a medical, but if I want to fly its sister shop which has VH- registration, I have to do a jig before an approved aviation medicine doctor.

 

OME

Unless of course the Camden Control Zone is active, in which case to fly the RA-AUS aircraft you'd need a RPL or PPL with Medical (class 2 or AvMed).

 

 

[facthunter]

An ordinary ECG wouldn't do much except by a comparison with your last one. A stress ecg (Bruce's protocol) with ultrasound examination is a reasonable test but it's pretty stressful if you have any limb or joint issues. If you can climb 3 flights of stairs fairly quickly, without being worried about your heart rate and breathing it's a good start.. Stroke is probably the biggest worry and it's a bit difficult to predict. If you have a lot of grunge in your carotid arteries that's a bad sign. Most heart problems predispose you to a worsening stroke situation. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

All pie in the sky as far as Australia is concerned. Does anyone here think CASA would give us any leeway on this matter..The less people flying, the safer the skies in their opinion. The medical does not weed out those who may have a heart attack. A friend of mine ad a massive heart attack within a month of passing his medical. Luckily he wasn't flying when it happened.

 

 

[old man emu]

Unless of course the Camden Control Zone is active, in which case to fly the RA-AUS aircraft you'd need a RPL or PPL with Medical (class 2 or AvMed).

I was just making the point that the medical standard required to fly identical airplanes are vastly different depending on the how the airplane is registered. I just used Camden as an example because I know that one of the flying schools has a foot on each camp. You are correct in mentioning the effect of the Control Zone being active. However, a person can undergo training on the 24- registration airplane under the cover of the CASA approved flying school which is also RAA-Aus approved, and during that training be flying around the circuit in the company of other students who are learning to fly in VH- registered airplanes going along the CASA path. Where's the logic for requiring medical clearance there?

 

OME

 

 

[facthunter]

OME... Logic? When has that been a factor with rules for aviation? You are flat out getting agreement on their meaning, for a start. Anyhow with strict liability you don't get to argue your case so it's all pretty simple. It's that way BECAUSE.... Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Be careful comparing getting a pilots licence or RPC with getting a driving licence. I n Victoria at least, getting a full licence can take up to 4 years, including 120 hours driving under supervision for under 21 year olds, progressing through learners permit, probationary licence 1, probationary licence 2 to full licence. Rather than list all details here, this link takes you through it.https://www.keys2drive.com.au/requirements/vic.aspx

Note: No reference to a medical.

Interesting read Peter,. . . .I wonder if there are any stats showing driver fatality differences pre and following the legislation described, ? make interesting reading, assuming someone has compiled stats on this. . . this was very different when I cashed in my Brit license in 1971 and obtained an immediate Australian replacement by filling in a form and paying a modest fee ( Victoria ) There can't be an argument against better driver training that's for sure. We have now got a regime here which requires a two part test, including a driving simulator requiring "Hazard Perception" . . . but the youg driver fatalities seemed to increase in the 18 - 28 age group, and there is still no requirement for "P" plates to be carried along with certain restrictions for the 36 months following a successful test pass. . . [.Minimum age for application 17 yrs. ] ( Interestingly, minimum age for a PPL - 16 Yrs. )

 

My personal opinion of this is that it would be a good idea, but then I'm an old fart and O.F. people tend to lose their aggressive edge and drive more carefully it seems. . . . don't respond at all when I get road raged by some snotty 17 year old in his hotted up, lowered VW Golf GTI Mk 1 with dustbin sized exhaust stacks out the back. . . can't be ar$ed really, even if it was my s l o w driving which probably initiated the swearing !

 

And there is no medical for a driving license here either. . .never has been for cars, only HGV 1, 2 and public service vehicles ( Buses, Coaches & Taxis) This is down to self-regulation, for example, if you have type 1 diabetes, then you cannot fly as P1, but you CAN still drive a car. . . Some care has to be taken so you don't forget your meds and go Hypo whilst driving, as my mate Cyril's wife did occasionally,. . .drove us up a motorway embankment one afternoon, and had no recollection of it afterwards ! I believe she's cashed in the ticket now though ! (Thankfully. . .) but it makes you wonder how many other medical timebombs are still driving. . .

 

 

[K-man]

I think it might have been in the AOPA magazine where I read where someone was trying to get more sense into aviation medicals here. From memory it was saying that in the U.S. Where they have records, there is no evidence to suggest that the medicals provide any greater level of safety to the group requiring medicals than the group flying without having medicals and that would probably be the same here if you did the comparison.

 

The only problem here is that CASA people seem intent on covering their collective arses.

 

 

[ave8rr]

NZCAA watching the UK medical discussion.

 

http://www.caa.gen.nz/could-signal-ppl-medicals/

 

I also like the UK idea of placing older type aircraft (Austers/Tigers etc) onto a Permit to Fly system

 

 

[Phil Perry]

for example, if you have type 1 diabetes, then you cannot fly as P1, but you CAN still drive a car. . . ( Quote from my previous post )

 

I have just been informed, yesterday in fact, that this regulation has been relaxed somewhat, A Pilot friend who was banned from flying when his type 2 diabetes progressed to type 1, told me that he can once again fly as P1, provided he can demonstrate to an examiner that he is able to fully control his condition with regards to diet, and also show that he can safely Inject himself whilst actually flying. . . should he feel that this course of action is required. ( I'm still having difficulty accepting that bit ! )

 

Things in aeromedics are certainly changing in the UK, and I applaud also the fact that more and more Factory built "Older and veteran" type aircraft are gradually being shifted from the hugely expensive CAA Private Certificate of Airworthiness, with it's associated over-regulated mantenance regime onto the long time proven and perfectly satisfactory "Permit to fly" system. Previously, this was only approved where the aircraft was an "Orphan" with no known service backup organisation available. ( Case in point, my mate David Crompton's 1944 Aeronca 7AC )

 

There have been odd examples of Factory built aircraft around, I saw a beautifully restored 1960s Cessna 150 Taildragger conversion, on a ( Then) PFA permit to fly a few years ago. . . obviously approved on a case by case basis plus perhaps the odd masonic handshake back then.

 

Phil