turboplanner Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Well I suppose there always have been morons in the system; I know one who paid with two lives because he couldn't be stuffed using it. Which is sort of what John's statistics are trying to tell us I suppose.
facthunter Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Forecasts cover the official requirements like holding /alternate specifics. cloud bases Cloud types Weather associated with Freezing levels . Winds at all useful levels (for planning) etc This is more suited to Airlines operating over fairly long distances, and they sometimes get it wrong and issue sigmets by radio to update requirements.. I feel a rec pilot needs to cover the legally required but have a bit more local knowledge and be able to understand fronts, fogs of all kinds, orographic turbulence katabatic and anabatic winds, read clouds( Cirrus, mare's tails usually indicates a cold front a few 100 kms away Cb and anvil cirrus, Dust storms , willy willys Properties of air masses, Inversion levels and stuff like that. I found the books for glider pilots helpful but there is a lot of difference with northern hemisphere references at times.. 2 1
Bruce Tuncks Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I'm curious about why there can't be a standard format while still using plain English. That's what the translation programs do. Why can't a presentation like that be used , and the die-hards can translate it back into the jargon . My understanding of the coding is that it was needed 50 years ago with telegrams, and has been continued too long. I appreciated Nathan Cornwell's well-argued defence of the code stuff but the choice does not have to be between code and chaos. In the meantime, I reckon that there is enough to do in a flight plan without adding a decode job, and I really appreciate the translator program on this site. 1 5
Birdseye Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 Five minutes after NAIPS was born in the early 90's as I recall, this came out:Not Actually Intending To Provide Service. Close, but no cigar - "Not Actually Intended To Provide Service" It's come a long way since those days. With integration into EFBs and such it's now quite effective.
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 And there lies the problem that I hope has been addressed by now. If Andy doesn't remember doing this in his training and myself and others do, where is the consistentsey in our training. And not just this one issue. Not remembering <> Didn't do it........I dragged out my clay tablet notes and found I was taught it in a X country course at Strathalbyn in SA when I was flying HGFA Trikes. I had simply forgotten where and when.... Our Navs at the time was circumnavigating Lake Alexandrina which is about 90nm...doesn't sound like much but back then when wizard wings were the order of the day and cruise no wind is circa 40kts it was doable...... My exposure to RAAus training was only my conversion hours weight shift to 3 axis and that wasn't a heap of hours Andy
K-man Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 I'm curious about why there can't be a standard format while still using plain English. That's what the translation programs do. Why can't a presentation like that be used , and the die-hards can translate it back into the jargon .My understanding of the coding is that it was needed 50 years ago with telegrams, and has been continued too long. I appreciated Nathan Cornwell's well-argued defence of the code stuff but the choice does not have to be between code and chaos. In the meantime, I reckon that there is enough to do in a flight plan without adding a decode job, and I really appreciate the translator program on this site. Looking in OzRunways yesterday and they have plain English weather.
Yenn Posted June 19, 2015 Posted June 19, 2015 I don't mind the format that the forecast is in, but they did make one change a few years ago that pisses me off. We used to have cloud at so many "octas". That was easy to understand. now it is scattered broken etc and I think it was a detrimental step. Now I am going to have a look out for that "anvil cirrus" It must be hard heavy and high, wouldn't want to run into it. 1
shags_j Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Yes you can program plain english weather into whatever in a standard format. Problem is that in aviation there are so many legacy systems around the world (there is no way our ATC system could handle it) that it would be too hard to do both. Until the world changes completely the coded system will always be there which is why I think everyone should learn to decode it. By all means fight the good fight to get it in plain english but until that is the accepted standard I wouldn't rely on always having something to translate it. Any tool you have available to you is a bonus. And guys it really isn't hard to learn and decode. EDIT: I'm not advocating for the encoded system to stay or anything like that. 2
Russ Posted June 21, 2015 Author Posted June 21, 2015 tossing in a curved ball here............why zulu time, here in oz. We all know local times, and adjust easily when needed, ( even our 24hr format is easy ) so why make it harder for this ol coot, by zulu stuff.......i've got enough on my plate poking along here n there, without zulu. 1
facthunter Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Everyone is on it all around the world. It's the old GMT isn't it. Nev 1
Happyflyer Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 tossing in a curved ball here............why zulu time, here in oz. We all know local times, and adjust easily when needed, ( even our 24hr format is easy ) so why make it harder for this ol coot, by zulu stuff.......i've got enough on my plate poking along here n there, without zulu. Do a lap around Cameron corner in summer and you will have three different time zones. Zulu remains the same. Zulu time is the one constant in aviation no matter where you fly. Even in the US! 2 1
pmccarthy Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Men of Harlech stop your dreaming Can't you see their spear points gleaming See their warrior's pennants streaming To this battle field Ah yes, I remember Zulu time well. 2 1
Russ Posted June 21, 2015 Author Posted June 21, 2015 Ok.....zulu for all "controlled" areas, no problems there ( locals and internationals meeting )........but 97.8% of us, only putt putt out of that zone, so why zulu. ( 10hr + - ) know all that......can't see the need tho. Camerons corner.........i'm not driven to lap around there, to engage in 2 or more time zones.......there's only 1, Qld time.
K-man Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Ok.....zulu for all "controlled" areas, no problems there ( locals and internationals meeting )........but 97.8% of us, only putt putt out of that zone, so why zulu. ( 10hr + - ) know all that......can't see the need tho.Camerons corner.........i'm not driven to lap around there, to engage in 2 or more time zones.......there's only 1, Qld time. Mmm! Yeah! I wouldn't rely on Queensland time. It seems to slow down over summer.
shags_j Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Russ: Out of CTA you can use for yourself whatever you want. I won't say anything ;)
Bruce Tuncks Posted June 21, 2015 Posted June 21, 2015 Translating the Zulu time code is a real chore, especially in SA with a 9.5 hour shift ( 10.5 in the summer) which often includes changing the date too. I need to sit down with a pencil and paper, although some of you young people might be able to do it while cleaning the windscreen. There is no reason to not give BOTH Zulu and local time, except to obfuscate. How a "safety" authority gets away with this is a mystery to me.
turboplanner Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 Looks like SA will be going to EST soon so that should help. All the aircraft in the sky at any time are just one big can of spaghetti continuously moving, can't stop for someone to get their bearings so it makes sense for ATC and most RA flights would be calling "Time 22" ( minutes only. I agree flight planning for a six hour interstate trip is more difficult. Once again, it's a situation where CPL and people who fly more than 70 hrs/year would be wondering what the fuss is, but to someone who flies away from the training area it is difficult to keep the training and changes up to speed 2 1
nathan_c Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 We do not have time zones (or state boundaries) overlayed on our ATC screens, and when you have airspaces that can have 3 or more states (therefore potentially timezones) there is no way ATC will be able to tell you the local time and be confident they are 100% accurate. (Without wasting a lot of time we usually don't have looking it up) You are welcome to use whatever time you want outside CTA, but consider a GA flight that is doing a long flight, and may have well left a timezone where the time is a GMT+9.5/10.5 time zone, and arriving in your GMT+9 (just for example). You may have to talk to them about your intended arrival times at an aerodrome, and if you are using local and they are on Zulu, you could potentially be arriving at the same time but you could be reporting to him a time thats half an hour out which is a safety issue.
facthunter Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 The half hour zones make it more difficult, (actually impossible) to just use minutes. All your planning data must fit the system if it's filed. Daylight saving is a nightmare. I contact England a lot and it just becomes normal to deduct the hours to get their time. If you had a clock set to GMT you just add the KNOWN difference to get local. If you want SUN time where the sun is over the top of you to the maximum extent at 1200 hours, 15 degrees longitude is one hour. When you are near the WA border ( but still In SA,) the sun is a lot out from what your clock says, because of the way we do things.. Nev 1
ben87r Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 You are welcome to use whatever time you want outside CTA This is NOT just a complicated CTA thingo ( no offence intended to Nathan at all) an does NEED to be used OCTA, if you start giving your ETA in the central states as local when everybody else is using UTC you eta will be half an hour out!! 20 instead of 50? I see issues with that straight away..Seriously guys! Is not that difficult, either buy a decent watch with dual time zones or even better, buy a $3 digital watch and set it to UTC and stick it in the cockpit.. 1 4
ayavner Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 I am not sure why we can't just globally adopt UTC and do away with local times and time zones altogether. I mean its only perception really that we expect it to look a certain way outside at 3am vs. 3 pm.. i think everyone would adapt well enough - 0300 would just mean different things to different people. its arbitrary. i've done exactly what ben suggests - just set my clock to UTC. If i'm just buzzing around locally, i'll just give out the time in "past the hour" for a CTAF broadcast, if having to talk to anyone in particular like the tower, or centre to amend a flight plan, I just state the time like "0300 Zulu" just to make sure. 1
nathan_c Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 This is NOT just a complicated CTA thingo ( no offence intended to Nathan at all) an does NEED to be used OCTA, if you start giving your ETA in the central states as local when everybody else is using UTC you eta will be half an hour out!! 20 instead of 50? I see issues with that straight away..Seriously guys! Is not that difficult, either buy a decent watch with dual time zones or even better, buy a $3 digital watch and set it to UTC and stick it in the cockpit.. I concede my post may not have been worded as intended, but that was kind of the point I was trying to make with what I wrote after your quoted sentence. I can't stop you from using another time outside CTA, but it is definitely a safety issue. 1 1
facthunter Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 The 24 hour presentation is another issue. It's so logical I can't understand why there wouldn't be total acceptance of it if properly promoted. 1230 Hours is better than "half past 12, daytime" or use AM and PM and be more confused. Nev
ben87r Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 Just to use SARTIME as another example which I imagine most would use? Could you imagine the headaches and mistakes of trying to sort out times of arrival local for Flightwatch? Plus half the time I doubt they would even know which state Waikikamaucow would be in..
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