230 / 430 MTOW South Africa vs Australia

[Icarus]

Hello.

 

I received a reply email from Jabiru Australia today, confirming MTOW of 700kg.

 

South Africa have 760kg. according to Jabiru Pacific Web site.

 

Does anybody know why the difference?

 

Thanks

 

Brendan

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hello.I received a reply email from Jabiru Australia today, confirming MTOW of 700kg.

South Africa have 760kg. according to Jabiru Pacific Web site.

 

Does anybody know why the difference?

 

Thanks

 

Brendan

Is your aircraft experimental ? If so make the MTOW what you want.

 

 

[Icarus]

[

 

Is your aircraft experimental ? If so make the MTOW what you want

I have no plane as yet . I Have been researching how to determine MTOW of Experimental aircraft. Not Having too much luck finding good info.

Seems to be ,load the wings with bags of concrete [ bags of plaster in my case :)] then put The bags in aircraft and see if it can fly!?

 

Trial and error method ?

 

Edit: Just read CASA EAB Rules . Seems I could just pick a number between 1 and 1500kg!

 

Thanks Dazza.

 

 

[Icarus]

Next question.

 

Who here has their 230 or 430 MTOW over 700kg or 760 kg?

 

[i realise this is above RAA MTOW and for GA EAB only]

 

Did you use ultimate G load to determine MTOW

 

ie 700kg x 8g = 5600 kg

 

5600kg / 800kg =7g

 

So MTOW 800kg at 7g ultimate load

 

or is there another way?

 

 

[jetjr]

Talk more to someone else at Jabiru, try phoning

 

Shadowlite in RSA certainly go to 760kg and a few small omponents were upgraded, like main wing bolts. I think they are all upgraded now even here

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I would have thought that there is not that sort of scope to pluck a figure out of the sky. Jabiru make the kit and they specify 700kg.

 

Even though the "manufacturer" is considered to be the assembler - the person who puts the kit together - I would have thought the " real" manufacturer who has done all the testing and put a figure forward - ie Jabiru - would be considered to have the say as to what the MTOW is.

 

When you get the Cof A done you have to show what figure you are getting it approved at you could claim it to be something other than what Jabiru specify but I doubt an AP would approve it. At least not without a huge amount of repeat testing on the part of the assembler of the kit. Mine was certified using the Jabiru figure of 700 kg and I doubt I could get it changed by my AP even though I would like to.

 

[i have no plane as yet . I Have been researching how to determine MTOW of Experimental aircraft. Not Having too much luck finding good info.

Seems to be ,load the wings with bags of concrete [ bags of plaster in my case :)] then put The bags in aircraft and see if it can fly!?

 

Trial and error method ?

 

Edit: Just read CASA EAB Rules . Seems I could just pick a number between 1 and 1500kg!

 

Thanks Dazza.

I have tried to find these rules on the CASA website but as usual have gone round and round in circles. Can you send me a link to the right page? Thanks

 

 

[jetjr]

Jabiru are happy to specify 760kg and will if you ask the right people

 

 

[Icarus]

I have tried to find these rules on the CASA website but as usual have gone round and round in circles. Can you send me a link to the right page? Thanks

Yes CASA site ,it is a mess.

 

Try here: http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:283813477:pc=PC_91002

 

Specifically AC 21-1[1] page 9

 

AC 21-4[2] Can read it all if you like.

 

I could not find in all that a rule that states that kit manufacturer MTOW must be used.

 

From what I understand you need to convince the person signing off on the certificate of a safe MTOW.

 

I believe the 230 430 were tested to 7.0g at 700kg. see you tube vid

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIV1ddkF-uM

So you could convince the authorised person that 760kg is safe to 6.44g? hence my original question.

 

fly it to 4 g with at least 2 g for wind gusts!

 

I believe the 700kg figure is for the planes jabiru build and the recommended MTOW for EAB.

 

Brendan

 

 

[Icarus]

If you read page 10 of 21-1 above I think it says EAB has no weight limit?!

 

 

[Jaba-who]

"I believe the 700kg figure is for the planes jabiru build and the recommended MTOW for EAB.

 

Brendan"

 

Nope. If you buy a factory built 230 the max weight is entirely dependent on which category you want to register it. RA Aus - 600 kg. Experimental - 700 kg.

 

Jab do not build 430s. If you want a 430 the only option is a kit build and the only option is to register it as experimental GA. (because it has 4 seats.)

 

So by default all 430s are registered as 700 kg. You can convert a 430 to an RA Aus, but only by taking out (at a minimum) the back seat belts. You could rip out the seats as well but its a pretty big job. Simply removing the seat belts complies with the rules. It then becomes a 230 and can be registered in either RA Aus or GA Experimental and the weight limit depends on which, again.

 

"If you read page 10 of 21-1 above I think it says EAB has no weight limit?!"

 

Yep. That's certainly true for experimental aircraft in general if they are designed and tested at that weight the manufacturer (home builder) puts forward at the time of getting the C of A. But it doesn't mean you can pick any figure you like and simply plug it into the paperwork.

 

The single criteria it turns out is the AP who gives you the C of A, has to be happy with the figure you have presented to him. If the kit manufacturer says 700 kg you are not likely to get him to sign off on 1500 kg or any weight over that 700 kg.

 

 

[Icarus]

OK I understand info above.

 

So that means buying a Jabiru airframe from South Africa to Get The MTOW of 760kg!?

 

They manufacture the Airframe over there I believe and State 760kgMTOW.

 

I sent them an email to ask if they changed anything in the airframe or just used the Jab test figures and recalculated to 6.44g at 760kg

 

or .........................

 

Perhaps a letter from Jabiru would convince an AP to up the weight to 760?

 

Ring em up and ask. There may be 60kg in it for ya?!

 

Brendan

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I thought from your initial post that Jabiru have declined to do that. I interpreted your first post to mean they have confirmed in writing they only will go to 700 kg.

 

Did I misinterpret?

 

 

[Icarus]

[i emailed them to confirm 700kg . I did not ask if I could get a letter to increase MTOW .

 

As I explained to them I was seeing conflicting info on various forums, Wikipedia! etc

 

I have no aircraft so no point in asking for a letter .

 

Was just a query to confirm Australian MTOW.

 

I am curious as to why SA has higher MTOW so I have also emailed them [Jab SA] this afternoon to ask how.

 

Maybe you could make a call to query them[ Jab Aus.] You have more to gain than me. Im just window shopping

 

:cell:do it do it do it

 

 

[jetjr]

"Talk more to someone else at Jabiru, try phoning"

 

"Jabiru are happy to specify 760kg and will if you ask the right people"

 

Third times a charm

 

Ring up Rod @ Jabiru and they will issue letter approving 760kg..........thats how RSA and others get to 760kg MTOW in a 430

 

 

[Icarus]

"Talk more to someone else at Jabiru, try phoning""Jabiru are happy to specify 760kg and will if you ask the right people"

Third times a charm

 

Ring up Rod @ Jabiru and they will issue letter approving 760kg..........thats how RSA and others get to 760kg MTOW in a 430

Dial 1800 760MTOW:cell:

 

Let us know how u go.

 

I will certainly do this BEFORE I purchase a 430 kit if that's the way I decide to go.

 

I am listening jet jr. Don't stress brother , its all good:smoking:

 

Is your j200 760kg? or RAA rego 600 or GA 700kg

 

 

[jetjr]

Not stressed, wading through CASA regs does that to me.

 

No J200B is only 2 seat and under RAA, MTOW 600kg,

 

I do know people here with 760kg MTOW 430

 

 

[Icarus]

Im sure Jaba Who will enjoy stuffing 60kg more crap in the back.

 

I was looking at the 430 w&b chart last night and it seems 100kg in the back seat is about the limit with a few hours fuel.

 

This is with the forward most ,aft of datum point [99mm]

 

 

[Icarus]

OK . So Jabiru South Africa passed on my email to Jabiru Australia.

 

Rod Stiff Rang me!

 

He Said that Jabiru South Africa has their own production certificate and different system to Australia.

 

He also said that when Jab Australia manufactures the jab , they allow tolerences for moisture and variations. plus 10% on top .

 

T hey test coupons of the aircraft composite.

 

He is confident that 760kg is fine.

 

They have been tested to 8 g

 

I asked if a letter stating the higher weight could be obtained for C of A , his reply was "yes certainly".

 

He indicated the aircraft is strong enough for even more weight with confidence! Im not sure a letter for more than 760 would be supplied however.

 

So as Jetjr says , give em a call . [i think I read that somewhere ]

 

A Jab 430 at 360 empty with full tanks and 300kg worth of pax and stuff, sounds good to me. just need to watch the c of g

 

 

[jetjr]

and have a long runway both ends of the trip - SA chart says 450-900m

 

Std brakes wont do much with that load either

 

 

[Icarus]

the 160hp ul power would fix the take off half of that problem

 

Can you get better brakes?

 

Have you got a link to that chart , I could never seem to find it.

 

 

[jetjr]

I have a pdf copy only

 

Yes some better brake are available, believe Jabiru havenew version 3 now too

 

 

[planesmaker]

360kg empty seems a bit optimistic to me, probably closer to 380kg. Considered a j400 around 35 kg lighter with the smaller wings. Very happy with mine, family on board a few hours of fuel, esky of food, stroller, TO wt around 650 kg at the forward limit! I must add the constant speed prop is a great benefit. Tom

 

 

[jetjr]

J2/400 are the same weight, wings are different shape not smaller.

 

360kg is pretty std for 2 seat J230 with all the fruit, extra seats is maybe 5-10 kg

 

My 200 is 361kg and has all the heavy options fitted.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Difference between j2/400 & j2/430 is the longer wings 8m & 10m respecectively. If you have a j200 361kg sounds right with lots of stuff. My j400 is 345kg, friend has j400 and his is 335kg. The longer wings add about 15kg/wing. I have seen j230 at 385kg. A great aeroplane you would have to agree? Very happy with performance.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

the 160hp ul power would fix the take off half of that problem Can you get better brakes?

Have you got a link to that chart , I could never seem to find it.

Yep.There are several options for better brakes.

 

Jabiru now have a new brake system that you can retro fit easily.

 

A mate of mine has them, fairly newly installed so I don't think he has given them a full workout yet. But I am watching his experience closely and will go the same way if they are good. They are bigger beefier with a single piston per side if I recall. The disc is way thicker. He says that so far they are good.

 

There are also two other USA companies that make brakes that can be fitted. One brand is Matco (matcomfg.com) I just forget the other name.

 

I had a look at both at Oshkosh last year and was fairly keen on the Matco ones. But when I came back I heard Jab were doing their own new ones so waited.

 

The problem of the two USA ones was that the Matco ones looked the best but needed more work to install. The others looked like less of an advance on the Jab ones but did just bolt straight on.

 

The Matco were very good looking - solid, good sized. heavy disc and the calipers went on from the inside of the ring compared to the outside like the Jabs etc but you need to re-drill the strut because the bolt position is slightly different. The guy said that lots of people had fitted them there in the states - flock and resin the holes and re-drill out new holes. I was pretty un-keen on that but he said it was no problem with strength etc. MMm I'm not so sure.