Accident Tyagarah Air Strip NSW

[BLA82]

Turbo you are a pest, sorry someone had to say it:nod:

 

People in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones mate. Maybe you should stick to commenting on things you actually know about not think you know.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Turbo,

 

Kasper has presented you with facts repeatedly.

 

The fact that it doesn't align with your standard position that somebody has to go to jail or have be fined some massive amount doesn't make him wrong.

 

If you need any further evidence that weight and balance calculations aren't necessary for a trike, go and have a look at the training syllabus for trike instruction. There should be a section dedicated to the teaching of such calculations, shouldn't there?

 

There isn't.

 

 

[bull]

Turbo you are a pest, sorry someone had to say it:nod:People in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones mate. Maybe you should stick to commenting on things you actually know about not think you know.

The most sensible thing anyone has said about turdy for yonks ,,,awesome well done................................

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've reported to you people what I found on the Type Certificate and POH of one particular make of trike - that's in black and white - not an opinion.

 

It doesn't surprise me at all that W&B isn't included in the trike syllabus - that has been obvious from the posts.

 

However, you can't get around what is in the POH and you can't get around what is in the CARs, no matter how indignant you might be.

 

 

[BLA82]

I've reported to you people what I found on the Type Certificate and POH of one particular make of trike

Just stop reporting mate, obviously no one agrees so there is no need to keep going. You can have your opinions and when you choose to add weight shift to the large list of aircraft you are reporting you fly under your avatar you might have a bit of credibility.

 

 

[bull]

I've reported to you people what I found on the Type Certificate and POH of one particular make of trike - that's in black and white - not an opinion.It doesn't surprise me at all that W&B isn't included in the trike syllabus - that has been obvious from the posts.

However, you can't get around what is in the POH and you can't get around what is in the CARs, no matter how indignant you might be.

Go away.....................

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Filling out your flight preparation form and keeping it as a record for six months, in accordance with CAR 233On that form needs to be what I posted in the last post, plus a lot more information (See CAR 233, CAR 235)

I think Turbo is wrong about keeping a "flight preparation form". When I read CAR233 is see that the only mention of a flight preparation form is for international flights. The 'operator' of these flights needs to keep the form for 6 months. I have never heard of any one asking private pilots to keep detailed records of every flight for six months. That would be a ridiculous requirement and I would suggest 99.99% of pilots would not do this. I assume Turbo does so I haven't said 100 %.

(2) The pilot in command of an aircraft engaged in international air navigation must not commence a flight if the pilot has not completed an approved flight preparation form certifying that the pilot is satisfied of the matters specified in subregulation (1).

 

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

 

(3) An operator must keep a completed flight preparation form for a period of 6 months.

 

Penalty: 5 penalty units

 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s233.html

 

 

[dazza 38]

All of this is doing my head in, forms this, paper work that. When I want to go for fly, I simply book an aircraft online a few days before I want it. I then wake up, poke my head outside and check the weather. If it is good, I go. Why do so many people want to complicate things with this and that. Just go for a spin peeps and enjoy it.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Children,

 

Play nice please, everyone has an opinion whether it is right or wrong, even if someone is wrong they may think they are right that's what makes the world go round.

 

Turbo is a valued formunite with valuable info passed on over the years even if he isn't right on some things.

 

FYI,

 

Ray Jacksons mates Richard & Peter are still here, couldn't get away from Innamincka due to a pain in the @ss headwind, would have left them with under 6 litres fuel remaining if they tried for Thargomindah. (closest fuels stop) in their direction

 

Good decision making I thought, who says trike pilots are cowboys??

 

They are pilots like the rest of us.

 

Alf

 

 

[SDQDI]

But the toing and froing is entertaining Dazza:wink:

 

I agree with you though.

 

As far as reducing the toll, wouldn't it be nice if we could get some subsidised training for example maybe every second BFR we could do a new endo or redo one we have already done (refresh it from the start) which could be payed for by government funds:thumb up:. It could still be optional but I would think if it was payed for more people would take it on. Yes yes I know that is a pie in the sky idea but it is perfect except for the fact that the money will never be there for that.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Children,Play nice please, everyone has an opinion whether it is right or wrong, even if someone is wrong they may think they are right that's what makes the world go round.

 

Turbo is a valued formunite with valuable info passed on over the years even if he isn't right on some things.

 

FYI,

 

Ray Jacksons mates Richard & Peter are still here, couldn't get away from Innamincka due to a pain in the @ss headwind, would have left them with under 6 litres fuel remaining if they tried for Thargomindah. (closest fuels stop) in their direction

 

Good decision making I thought, who says trike pilots are cowboys??

 

They are pilots like the rest of us.

 

Alf

I try to play nice. If I post something that is wrong, I hope someone will correct me, preferably with a suitable reference. That way we all learn.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Much more digging & some of you are going to be joining me here in the UK !

 

I've circumnavigated Aus in a trike and flown one across Africa (unsupported) so I believe I have a reasonable idea of how much gear it is possible to practically fit in them. It's not enough to adversely affect the pitch control limits and any effects on performance of changes to the thrust line are minor compared to the changes caused by the increase in overall WEIGHT (same as any other aircraft).

 

The most extreme example I can think of is Milton's attempt to fly a trike non-stop across the Atlantic. He had fitted a fuel tank of (IIRC) 450L. This replaced the entire rear seat, towering over his head, protruded out the sides of the trike and extended underneath the front seat. I've no idea exactly how much overweight the trike was (standard tank is 65L) but he failed to get out of ground effect and the undercarriage collapsed when he put it back down after running out of runway. Prior to this, I believe the trike had been flown successfully with the tank full of water as a test - no control issues. The water was emptied before landing because it was recognised that the undercarriage wouldn't handle the loads.

 

The title of this thread really needs to be changed :-(

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[kasper]

BUT, if you put say 200 kgs in the back of the trike by adding luggage, doubling the fuel qty etc all at the rear, the thrust line will obviously be different because the trike base will hang differently and you may run out of bar movement because the bar will be in your stomach when flying straight and level.So YES loading a trike will have a big effect on how it flies, this is something you cant argue about, its a basic law of gravity with the base hanging from the bejesus bolt or whatever its called. If all the weight was at the front then the bar would hit the tube in front of your trike and control is lost the other way.

Ok, sorry to have tarred you with digging holes.

Basic issue you seem to be concerned with is thrust angle - not really an issue.

 

Consider - the engine thrust angle is fixed relative to the trike (only 1 trike I have ever flown had in in air thrust trim as well as hang point trim) so here is a standard flight in a trike from a thrust perspective

 

When I push out while on the ground the thrust angle remains unchanged as the wheels hold the trike level so its the wing that changes angle

 

As I lift off the trike adopts a nose high attitude compared to the trike on ground - design like this because as a free hanging trike we cant raise the nose to flare and land so the natural in air angle of the trike wheels is nose high - usually around 20-30 cm. This nose high of 20-30 cm equates to around 10deg lower thrust angle in the air to on the ground - static engine fitment is designed for flight so actually on the ground the thrust angle is a bit odd as it is not parallel to the ground.

 

Now if I let the bar come back in the air to reduce the climb the bar comes back towards me and the angle of thrust relative to the wing changes

 

Given that I have around 20degrees of pitch from bar on front strut to bar on chest in the air I can - and do - vary the thrust angle with reference to the wing by those 20degrees

 

So given that the rear seat load practically moves the static bar position in air by maybe 1deg of thrust change the reality is that loads in the rear seat make bugger all difference.

 

Now looking at the saddle bags that usually hold a 20L jerry can - each of these with full can weigh in at around 28kg so with two fitted plus another jerry on the rear seat I am up to around 85kg ... and I'm running out of space for more ... but as they are on the same station as the rear seat balance is unchanged, just weight, now go for a gear bag on the trike net and if you are going camping short of packing a cast iron camp oven in there you are not going to add more than 10-15kg and again the distance from the hang point will be immaterial to the static hanging angle.

 

So there you go, thrust angle is not critical as its variable all through the flight and using saddle bags and trike pod bags are not an issue.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Pearo]

All of this is doing my head in, forms this, paper work that. When I want to go for fly, I simply book an aircraft online a few days before I want it. I then wake up, poke my head outside and check the weather. If it is good, I go. Why do so many people want to complicate things with this and that. Just go for a spin peeps and enjoy it.

This is fine if you are going for a fly near you aerodrome. What if its sunny where you depart, but not where you intend to land? I was going to do a nav to Coffs last year, but the weather turned bad so we went to Bundy. Weather was good at home. However by the time we got back to Brisbane, guess what, the front had moved north and storms every where in BNE. First time for me in the left seat, but not the first time I have seen it whilst flying with others in the club....

 

I have been sailing all my life (40 years now), and I know how fast weather can turn. Forecasts are important if you are straying further afield than your local aerodrome. The rules are their for a reason.

 

 

[dazza 38]

This is fine if you are going for a fly near you aerodrome. What if its sunny where you depart, but not where you intend to land? I was going to do a nav to Coffs last year, but the weather turned bad so we went to Bundy. Weather was good at home. However by the time we got back to Brisbane, guess what, the front had moved north and storms every where in BNE. First time for me in the left seat, but not the first time I have seen it whilst flying with others in the club....I have been sailing all my life (40 years now), and I know how fast weather can turn. Forecasts are important if you are straying further afield than your local aerodrome. The rules are their for a reason.

You would obviously check the area forcast if going long distance.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Guys,

 

FYI,

 

Richard Tabaka & Peter Schmidt (Ray's close friends) just departed Innamincka at 07:25 S.A time, heading for Tibboburra then working their was east towards Cobar as the winds are more favorable the farther south they head, forecast for straight east was once again against them.

 

Wishing them safe travels

 

Alf

 

 

[Kununurra]

About all this thread is good for is getting the msg count higher as no matter what explanations are given they just don't sink in.

 

Now what was the original subject ?

 

 

[turboplanner]

[Teckair]

Funny I thought, the posts seem to have dried up.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I'm not a trike pilot but I have noticed that when they are flying they are a well balanced lot.

 

Alan.

 

 

[facthunter]

The goal posts get moved a lot on this forum. 3 axis flys better inverted than a weightshift, Your future is in the balance, then.. Nev

 

 

[Guest asmol]

[ATTACH=full]36544[/ATTACH]

Turbo, dont know you personally but i think it shuts them all up with their non compliance re weight and balance etc.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Richard & Peter are safe in Cobar tonight

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I'm not a trike pilot but I have noticed that when they are flying they are a well balanced lot. Alan.

Are you referring to us pilots or our aircraft

 

 

[Butch]

Went with my best mate for a fly in the Tecnam today....... he loved it !

 

He is a trike pilot ....looking forward to going up with him to experience weight shift flying.

 

We all love flying, chill out guys......we're all on the same team!