kasper Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 From the FAA Weightshift Control Aircraft Flying Handbook:Weight and Loading Weight and loading must be considered before each flight. Do not exceed the maximum gross weight as specified in the pilot’s operating handbook (POH). The balance of the pilot, passenger, fuel, and baggage is usually not an issue, but must be reviewed in the POH for the specific make/model since some may have balance limitations. The fore and aft carriage attachment to the wing hang point must be within the limits as specified in the POH for weight and loading of the carriage. Always follow the POH performance limitations. From the ©AirBorne WindSports Pty. Ltd.: PILOT HANDBOOK - EDGE SERIES MICROLIGHTS 5 WEIGHT and BALANCE This aircraft must only be flown solo from the front seat. No ballast is required if the pilot weight is above 65 kg. If the pilot weight is below 65 kg it may be necessary to carry ballast in water bags. Ensure the bags are watertight and safely secured in flight. All aircraft operations may be carried out whilst solo, as when the aircraft is flown dual. With lighter aircraft AUW the full-power setting may have to be reduced to get a safe climb angle after lift off. The wings have three attachment points on the universal bracket. The forward setting will increase the trim speed and the aft setting will decrease trim speed. The variation of attachment point has been designed to allow the pilot to pre-select the centre of gravity position prior to flight. Under normal operations the trike base should be attached to the wing in the middle position. The rearward trim position must be used with MTOW of 340kg or less. In flight the only noticeable difference is the control bar pitch pressure, which increases as the hang point is moved rearward. The fuel capacity must always be considered when measuring the AUW of the aircraft. Remember that fuel is measured at 0.7 kg per litre and may slightly alter the aircraft’s performance during take off and landing. You have to fly iaw the Manufacturer's Pilot Operating Handbook for the aircraft you fly. Weighshift Aircraft may have a choice of hang-points although, as stated above, the middle position is normally used. In training you are advised not to move this position and later, only if you know what you are doing. Nevertheless, the CoG is self-correcting.... and all we have to calculate is AUW. Note: the specific weight of fuel is more correct in this manual Check out the two Australian CASA issued type certificates - Victor Air Tourer AT100 http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/casadata/cota/download/34-1.pdf Airbourne XT912 http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/casadata/cota/download/va513.pdf ... show me WHERE the balance point limits in terms of range from datum (which is the definition of the Balance part of the W&B) exists in the XT912 and I will gladly eat a copy of either the RAA Ops or Tech manaual ...
facthunter Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 When an object is hanging so it is free to move the Cof G of the body will be on a line from the pivot point to the direction of the gravitational force. Nev
Guest asmol Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 This aircraft must only be flown solo from the front seat. No ballast is required if the pilot weight is above 65 kg. If the pilot weight is below 65 kg it may be necessary to carry ballast in water bags. Ensure the bags are watertight and safely secured in flight.All aircraft operations may be carried out whilst solo, as when the aircraft is flown dual. With lighter aircraft AUW the full-power setting may have to be reduced to get a safe climb angle after lift off. Cmon guys, from the Airborne manual, and you said it yourself. Dont fly solo from the back seat ! Why, weight & Balance issues! Below 65 kgs pilot weight - Carry Ballast. Without being rude why dont you guys GET THIS ? It seems to me to be pretty black and white. I also will throw another spanner in the works, what happens when you are aero-towing, that screws up your W&B issues again and would cause a nose down attitude. This issue, non-understanding and misunderstanding by some is so bad that i think its time to call in the HGFA or RA-Aus or CASA to sort it out because people are starting to look real stupid. (IMO)
kasper Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 When an object is hanging so it is free to move the Cof G of the body will be on a line from the pivot point to the direction of the gravitational force. Nev Mostly correct ... though the CofG of the trike will hang under the hang point on the wing only when not moving and not under power ... the air pressure on the forward face of the trike (and in my case the rotund chap seated) will drag/push it backwards when in flight as will the engine thrust push it forward - we are pretty close the actual hang point but under power slightly forward and without power slightly behind. And on top of this the CofG of the entire aircraft is not the same as the trike as the wing itself has mass (quite a bit of it) and the CofG of the wing is not necessarily at the hang point and the CofG of the aircraft is the net position between the trike and wing.
kasper Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 clipped ...It seems to me to be pretty black and white. I also will throw another spanner in the works, what happens when you are aero-towing, that screws up your W&B issues again and would cause a nose down attitude. ... clipped Aerotow from trike causing nose down??? please explain. Aerotow from Trikes I have flown have been through the hollow prop shaft or from a cage frame that puts the tow point through the centreline of the prop. Given the thrust of the engine does not create large or uncontrollable control forces the counteracting drag from the tow actin through the same point would only reduce the swing from engine power ... 3
kasper Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Cmon guys, from the Airborne manual, and you said it yourself. Dont fly solo from the back seat ! Why, weight & Balance issues! Below 65 kgs pilot weight - Carry Ballast. Without being rude why dont you guys GET THIS ? ... Clipped No not balance, it is not that but the position of the controls from a hang angle point: - from rear seat you do not have full duplicate controls and you cannot access (unless an orangutan) the primary controls of the engine - low weight pilot in front seat - the bar will not be in the playing piano position but closer to your chest (uncomfy and not as much lever to push out on bar) and the swing through on takeoff will be higher (requires higher push out on bar) Neither of these are situations that put the CofG of the aircraft outside the controllable range with respect to the CofL for the wing (very different from 3axis where rear and forward CofG adversly impact the ability to fly the aircraft) but are not permitted because the controls are not in a position that is best/safe for flight. 2
facthunter Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 I kept it simple and said a "body", not a part of a trike.. For a 3 axis an allowable Cof G range is specified which is well in the safe operating capability. Size of your tail feathers affects this. The horizontal stabiliser and elevators can provide lift or download, and it's safer if they don't provide a lot of lift. That is the tailheavy situation and the tailplane may stall before the mainplanes do. DANGEROUS.. With a trike, weightshift says it all. If your hang point was incorrect you would have a high control force in one direction same as if your elevator trim is out.. Nev
BLA82 Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Asmol Time to call the HGFA and RAA to sort this out, Seriously ? The only people on here that are looking stupid are the ones who THINK they know and won't be deterred. If you read the posts the same answers have been given time and time again by people who are actually respected and well known Weightshift Pilots, not people who have a higher belief in their knowledge and have ego's the size of this thread. I know who I believe and more than likely if the RAA or HGFA ops actually sought these guys opinions and advice the manuals might reflect real life that bit more. 1 1 1
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 we call it weight because the balance part exists, but is relatively insensitive in trikes. However Turbo's point is correct, if we choose to hang something where we don't normally (ie at the extreme ends of the pod triangle) , and that thing is heavy we may still be within MTOW but could possibly be outside what was intended for the pod attitudes when flying. Bottom line is if you don't do anything on a trike you haven't seen anyone else do then you need only be aware of the POH's weight limitations. If you intend to hang weight at a point you haven't previously, and its either aft or forward of the normal front seat/backseat/pannier/Gerry can locations then you will need to do a bit of moment trig to ensure you aren't unknowingly putting yourself into an ugly attitude. I mean 80+hp trike bases can almost emulate space shuttle take off attitudes....you could if you were to hang some significant weight of the engine, for example, end up with a take off attitude that might catch you out if you had an EFATO in terms of being able to quickly pitch over before you were to tumble over backwards... And then there is the reality when we go on a long distance x country with camping gear for light, but bulky stuff like sleeping bags/mattresses etc, to be inserted into the wing between the upper and lower surface skins ....the stuff we put up there is light/very light, but you might consider exactly where in the wing space you store the stuff because within the wing surface balance does matter...... and you of course have to consider the reality that very light when acted on by a momentary 3G bit of turbulence is suddenly no longer very light.....You need to consider would the wing surface hold easily if this thing I'm stuffing up there was 3 times as heavy, because that's how heavy it will be to the surface skin when you get that transient bunp.... Andy
skeptic36 Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Andy, I think that even those of us that Asmol thinks look really stupid, realise that it would be possible to load a trike so badly that it may be difficult or impossible to control. If we go back to where this discussion deviated from the original topic, it started because somebody thought there should be weight and balance calculations written down for the particular flight. The fact is, that if the trike is operated IAW the POH it will always be in the safe range with regard to weight and balance. The people that regulate weight shift know this and therefore don't make us do a calc for every flight, nor do they teach us how to do it ( except for, as has been shown here, the latest RAAus training syllabus, which some believe is a mistake). If they do make us do weight and balance calcs, that is likes saying " here you go fellas, when you break the law, ( operate outside the instructions in the POH) you will need to do these calcs to make sure you don't crash". At this stage, I don't think they do, but I will find out for sure shortly. Bill 1 1
alf jessup Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Andys@coffs' date=' post: 502220, member: 94[/email']]And then there is the reality when we go on a long distance x country with camping gear for light, but bulky stuff like sleeping bags/mattresses etc, to be inserted into the wing between the upper and lower surface skins ....the stuff we put up there is light/very light, but you might consider exactly where in the wing space you store the stuff because within the wing surface balance does matter...... Andy, Stuffing camping gear in to the Trikes wing is a very good way to end up on this forum for the very wrong reasons. The wing is designed as a wing not a storage space, jam the floating cross tube or alter the profile of the wing and well......you will see what happens. If anyone on here is foolish enough to cart stuff in your trikes wing thinking it's a great thing to do " it's not You have been warned. Alf 6
kasper Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Unless it's a cat or two of course! Or a swarm of bees ... tied down three trikes at La Rochelle one summers afternoon and went to have a quiet drink as the sun set and a damn swarm of bees decided to move in through the open cross beam access panel and settle in ... was glad it was not my trike as we waited for the local chap to come and get a swarm out ... but revenge was sweet - Vicky had a flat battery and I got volunteered to hand prop the 912 :-/
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Andy,Stuffing camping gear in to the Trikes wing is a very good way to end up on this forum for the very wrong reasons. The wing is designed as a wing not a storage space, jam the floating cross tube or alter the profile of the wing and well......you will see what happens. If anyone on here is foolish enough to cart stuff in your trikes wing thinking it's a great thing to do " it's not You have been warned. Alf I don't and haven't done it myself, but I've seen bags of washing, sleeping bags and those self inflating mattresses (unrolled) stuffed up into the wing through the lower surface zip. The folks doing so were all experienced and in some cases instructors...they're all still alive and kicking today, so presumably the danger you talk of isn't the instant death type unless you are clueless....The more dangerous killer with regards to trike wings is frost and even dew itself.....If you get dew on a wing and it freezes over night and the runway you want to take off on is not rated lengthwise for 737's or above then frost/dew will get you more than a rogue sleeping bag..... 2nd most dangerous is in my opinion wet grass.....rotax 912's probably less impacted than the older less powerful 2 stroke 503's and 582's, but aircraft acceleration is very negatively impacted in longer wet grass and the 3 strand wire fence at the end will still stop you if your not over the top in time....... Owning a J230 means weight and balance is a significant issue, not just because its 3 axis but because it was designed as a 4 seat aircraft and with the 2 rear seats removed there is bucket loads of space in the back, use it without consideration and life might well be challenging! Andy
Guernsey Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Unless it's a cat or two of course! That could be a positive....you could crash nine times without getting killed. Alan. 1
ev17ifly2 Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Tha I don't and haven't done it myself, but I've seen bags of washing, sleeping bags and those self inflating mattresses (unrolled) stuffed up into the wing through the lower surface zip. The folks doing so were all experienced and in some cases instructors...they're all still alive and kicking today, so presumably the danger you talk of isn't the instant death type unless you are clueless....The more dangerous killer with regards to trike wings is frost and even dew itself.....If you get dew on a wing and it freezes over night and the runway you want to take off on is not rated lengthwise for 737's or above then frost/dew will get you more than a rogue sleeping bag..... 2nd most dangerous is in my opinion wet grass.....rotax 912's probably less impacted than the older less powerful 2 stroke 503's and 582's, but aircraft acceleration is very negatively impacted in longer wet grass and the 3 strand wire fence at the end will still stop you if your not over the top in time.......Owning a J230 means weight and balance is a significant issue, not just because its 3 axis but because it was designed as a 4 seat aircraft and with the 2 rear seats removed there is bucket loads of space in the back, use it without consideration and life might well be challenging! Andy In practice may well have been the the case with the slow, low performance wings of the past however I wouldn't do it with the current high performance wings as some are twitchy enough as is. I certainly wouldn't fill the wing space on an Arrow, Bionix or Quick R. There are other storage options without risking the integrity of the wing. 2
K-man Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Interesting to apply the foregoing discussion to 2 seater light aircraft. We have two storage areas behind the seats. We can have up to 20 kg in the first area and 15 kg in the rear. Pilot and passenger are very close to COG. As long as we are under MTOW and observe those weight limits I don't see how we can be outside W&B parameters. I haven't heard of anyone doing specific calculations.
kasper Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Interesting to apply the foregoing discussion to 2 seater light aircraft. We have two storage areas behind the seats. We can have up to 20 kg in the first area and 15 kg in the rear. Pilot and passenger are very close to COG. As long as we are under MTOW and observe those weight limits I don't see how we can be outside W&B parameters. I haven't heard of anyone doing specific calculations. If you know that the book values apply to your airframe (ie your empty weight and empty CofG match the book) then yes, the load limits in locations work and are in fact compliance with reg 233 as you \have received evidence of being within W&B. However, your Alpi pioneer is wood and composite ... both materials can end up with a production aircraft with slightly different empty weight and empty CofG than the proptotype/production example that the handbook was written for (or you added/changed the equipment fitout) even before considering the facts that the construction materials absorb water and can have a differing weight (and empty CofG). any material change in empty weight or empty CofG may require alteration to the standard load limits in the load areas. But basiclly yes, staying within the overall limits from the handbook of the load schedule will result in a CofG within the legal and safe limits without additional calculation. 1 1
alf jessup Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 I don't and haven't done it myself, but I've seen bags of washing, sleeping bags and those self inflating mattresses (unrolled) stuffed up into the wing through the lower surface zip. The folks doing so were all experienced and in some cases instructors...they're all still alive and kicking today, so presumably the danger you talk of isn't the instant death type unless you are clueless....The more dangerous killer with regards to trike wings is frost and even dew itself.....If you get dew on a wing and it freezes over night and the runway you want to take off on is not rated lengthwise for 737's or above then frost/dew will get you more than a rogue sleeping bag..... 2nd most dangerous is in my opinion wet grass.....rotax 912's probably less impacted than the older less powerful 2 stroke 503's and 582's, but aircraft acceleration is very negatively impacted in longer wet grass and the 3 strand wire fence at the end will still stop you if your not over the top in time.......Owning a J230 means weight and balance is a significant issue, not just because its 3 axis but because it was designed as a 4 seat aircraft and with the 2 rear seats removed there is bucket loads of space in the back, use it without consideration and life might well be challenging! Andy Andy, I am just saying it is not a good practice to store stuff in the wing, I have never seen a trike wing with the word store your camping gear in here in the wing, I don't care if instructors do it or not they can die just as easy as a mere mortal No it's not an instant death either its when you turn and it jams you floating cross tube it's just a lovely turn your not going to get out of until you hit the deck then you may have either an instant death or maybe a slow one or you might just be plain lucky and survive it. Bit like chancing scud running all the time, you may get away with it a lot of times but eventually your going to get bitten. Each to their own, for those who do it and read this what I have wrote at least you will be on this clueless persons mind wishing you hadn't of stored this stuff in your wing as your heading for the deck and most probably for certain demise Cheers Clueless 1
alf jessup Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Tha In practice may well have been the the case with the slow, low performance wings of the past however I wouldn't do it with the current high performance wings as some are twitchy enough as is. I certainly wouldn't fill the wing space on an Arrow, Bionix or Quick R. There are other storage options without risking the integrity of the wing. I wouldn't do it in any trike wing, a wing is designed to be a wing, if it was designed to carry gear the manufacturers would have made provisions for it. Alf 2
turboplanner Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Interesting to apply the foregoing discussion to 2 seater light aircraft. We have two storage areas behind the seats. We can have up to 20 kg in the first area and 15 kg in the rear. Pilot and passenger are very close to COG. As long as we are under MTOW and observe those weight limits I don't see how we can be outside W&B parameters. I haven't heard of anyone doing specific calculations. Interesting to apply the foregoing discussion to 2 seater light aircraft. We have two storage areas behind the seats. We can have up to 20 kg in the first area and 15 kg in the rear. Pilot and passenger are very close to COG. As long as we are under MTOW and observe those weight limits I don't see how we can be outside W&B parameters. I haven't heard of anyone doing specific calculations. Here's a link to a Pioneer 300 Flight Manual (Not necessarily yours). www.fdaengineering.com/pioneer/.../P300%20Flight%20Manual%20Iss... In Section 7, Weight and Balance, on Page 54 you will find: Centre of Gravity Limits Datum Stations Envelopes These are for discharging your duties under Civil Aviation Regulations 233 and 235, and the RAA Operations Manual. These also form part of the Performance and Operations Suite. NOTE: Do not use the above link for any calculations; you must use the Manual from the aircraft you are about to fly. If you are new to flying and doing circuits with the instructor, he may be going to train you on this to avoid hitting you with a million things at once. If you're past that and have been doing cross countries, particularly solo cross countries and haven't yet been trained, speak to your instructor asap. 1
K-man Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 If you are new to flying and doing circuits with the instructor, he may be going to train you on this to avoid hitting you with a million things at once. If you're past that and have been doing cross countries, particularly solo cross countries and haven't yet been trained, speak to your instructor asap. Yep, got the Flight Manual thank you. New to it? Hmm! Well as to hours, my wife (ppl) and I have probably got about 700 hours on it and been round Australia 4 or 5 times. Still learning though. 1
facthunter Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Not relating to Trikes in this discussion, but wings are a good place to store stuff if designed for it. You can make the structure much lighter for the same AUW. In some aircraft any weight above a certain figure must be fuel in the wings. Nev
alf jessup Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Not relating to Trikes in this discussion, but wings are a good place to store stuff if designed for it. You can make the structure much lighter for the same AUW. In some aircraft any weight above a certain figure must be fuel in the wings. Nev Hit the nail on the head Nev. If designed for it, like i said yet to see a placard on a trike wing saying storage locker in here. Alf
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