Can't turn, Can't climb, Can't run: F35 problems

[willedoo]

Interestingly in this same article they talk about swarming drones

It is an interesting concept. A bit similar to Chinese troops in the Korean war using numbers to overwhelm, or the blitzkrieg senario. I can see the parallel with what some members here have been saying about F-35's with all their technology being overwhelmed by sheer numbers of 4th generation fighters within visual range. As with any aircraft, when they expend their weapons, the only alternative is to bug out with either maneuverability or speed. A lot of people are saying the F-35 doesn't have either.

 

I'd like to think we'd never see a major confrontation like that again, but it's always good to sit in the old armchair and theorise. It's looking more like we'll just get involved in proxy wars into the future, but who knows.

 

 

[willedoo]

Maybe the thread title should be edited to 'can't turn, can't climb, can't run, can't bail out if you're too skinny'.

 

Here's an article on the ejection seat problem for lighter pilots:

 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/air-force/2015/10/01/exclusive-f-35-ejection-seat-fears-ground-lightweight-pilots/73102528/

 

It looks like the've banned pilots weighing less than 136 pounds, about 62 kg. from flying the F-35. The lighter pilot allows the seat to rotate too far forward, breaking the necks on lighter test dummies upon chute deployment.

 

After all the work they did on the comparitive testing programme, there must be some thinking that they should have gone for the K-36. The best seat in the world was offered as a license build and rejected. The figures speak for themselves - in more than 90% of K-36 variant ejections, the pilots have survived injury enough to be able to resume their careers as fighter pilots. With MB's the figures are almost opposite.

 

Biggest problem in helmet design these days is how to incorporate all the 5th. gen. attachments without creating dangerous neck loadings.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Biggest problem in helmet design these days is how to incorporate all the 5th. gen. attachments without creating dangerous neck loadings.

Pilots with thicker necks.

 

 

[willedoo]

Pilots with thicker necks.

Thanks for the explanation, Marty. I've often wondered why the Russian ZSh-7 helmet has a 150 kts. ejection speed advantage over the equivalent US model. It makes sense now.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

its starting to sound like they are going to cost Australia a lot more than budgeted

 

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/f-35-too-expensive-us-air-force-might-buy-72-new-f-15-or-f-16-fighter-jets/

 

 

[Downunder]

Surely drone warfare has proven itself enough to take centre stage and spark the beginning of the demise of manned atttack or intercept aircraft?

 

No one has the balls to pull the plug on the f-35 because of how much has already been spent?

 

I don't know.....

 

 

[Marty_d]

Maybe aerospace companies are like banks... "too big to fail"... so they get propped up with taxpayer's dollars. The clever thing is that they get taxpayers from not only their own country but others as well to prop them up.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Maybe aerospace companies are like banks... "too big to fail"... so they get propped up with taxpayer's dollars. The clever thing is that they get taxpayers from not only their own country but others as well to prop them up.

Marty:

What you say s quite true in regard to military industrial companis plundering overseas taxpayers. I think it is done by applying political pressure between governments. The companies have an inordinate amount of clout with politicians in the US by virtue of how much money they can throw at the politicians.

 

Interestingly, Dwight Eisenhower warned about the rise of the military industrial influence with politicians in his final speech. Everything he warned of has come to pass, and then some.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

US debt is staggering in it's magnitude

 

 

 

[rgmwa]

Amazing! They know what the debt is down to the last dollar. Now that's impressive!

 

rgmwa

 

 

[fly_tornado]

update on the F35s "progress" last year,

 

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2016/01/DOT%26E%202015%20F-35%20Annual%20Report.pdf

 

TL;DR?

 

“the F-35B Block 2B aircraft would need to avoid threat engagement… in an opposed combat scenario, and would require augmentation by other friendly forces.”

 

 

[DGL Fox]

US debt is staggering in it's magnitude[ATTACH=full]39506[/ATTACH]

Yes all that debt and yet the yank $ is still the leading world currency, and our $ is worth 30% less...unbelievable...

 

David

 

 

[Kiwi303]

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/22/american-gripen-the-solution-to-the-f-35-nightmare/

[Litespeed]

Yes we should just buy a heap of gripens and could actually afford to fly them

 

 

[willedoo]

It's easy to get a bad feeling about the F-35.

 

As that article about the Gripen pointed out, the first F-35 rolled off the line ten years ago. Aside from all the problems, they still haven't written all the software for it yet. Gives you the feeling that it might have to be continually worked on to prevent it becoming obselete before it's combat ready.

 

The F-4 Phantom in the mid to late fifties of development, was the first U.S. aircraft built where systems engineering and project management came together to give us the modern efficient methods we have today. They'd roll over in their grave if they could see what a hash up has been made with the F-35's development.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Our Air Force, after suffering political interference in previous defence procurements, set up a thorough, long-term selection protocol. Aircraft manufacturers sent representatives and their families to live in Australia to promote their fighter planes during this lengthy evaluation and selection period.

 

Before the selection process could even get off the ground, PM Howard, on a trip to the US announced we'd be buying the F-35.

 

Along with some of his other decisions (eg. selling NW Shelf gas for a song) this might end up costing Australia far more than any Labor budget deficit.

 

 

[willedoo]

F-35 HMD helmet and mask:

 

 

One drawback to modern technology with helmet mounted display and night vision attachments is the increased neck loadings on ejection. Martin Baker has gone back to the drawing board with the MB MK.16 for the F-35, due to test dummies under 10 stone breaking necks. The lighter weight pilot is allowing the seat to rotate forward too much, causing excessive neck loads when the chute is deployed. So far, only one male pilot has had to be re-assigned; the only female pilot is over the weight limit and is not affected by the ban.

 

Beats me why they didn't stick with the original concept of the Russian designed K36-3.5A for the F-35 and F-22, based on the world's best state of the art seat. One reason the Russians have the edge in ALSE is that one design bureau designs seat, helmets, pressure suits, masks and anything else involved. The way we do it is to get a dog's breakfast of different contractor supplied equipment and try to cobble it together. Our left hand doesn't know what our right hand is doing, whereas a more centralized system like Zvezda's enables more focus on the main game. Corporatization is killing inovation and technology, and leading us down the path to taking twenty years to build a fighter that works.

 

Another ejection issue could be the mask. The main supply hose and inspiration valve hanging out the front would cause enough centre of gravity shift to add to neck loadings and flail risks. Seems to have gone backward from the older style side mounted hoses.

 

 

[Marty_d]

This is what sh*ts me about the government. They can p*ss our money against the wall with defense procurement without the slightest input from the public that pays for it, but they can't do their job and vote on a simple correction to the Marriage Act without a plebiscite. The F-35 is an abortion and whoever signed us up to it should be taken out and flogged on the parliament lawn.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

J. W. Howard.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

When remembering Howard and his relationship with the U.S ..... the cartoon of the bulldog Spike and his little mate hanging on every word and doing everything he says and shoving his little mate out in front him when danger was about come to mind.

 

David

 

 

[Marty_d]

J. W. Howard.

Ah, in that case, double the flogging. Little Johnny was also the one who made that unnecessary change to the Marriage Act in the first place, so we should whip him twice as long for the total waste of taxpayer's dosh.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

J. W. Howard.

Ah the Howard days when the US said jump and we said how high and what else do you need sir and everything that was said in the US was the God's gospel truth...thank God we are standing up for ourselves a bit more these days and hopefully not so gullible any more.... well maybe some are not...

David

 

 

[Ultralights]

So many negative stories about the F35, it almost like its deliberate negative propaganda...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the problem for Lockheed Martin is bad news sells newspapers and on such a large project the news is always bad.

 

 

[willedoo]

So many negative stories about the F35, it almost like its deliberate negative propaganda...

There is a growing volume of informed and educated opinion on the problems and capabilities of the F-35.

 

But having said that, are the problems any worse than some projects in the past. Maybe it's just that in this highly connected age, via the internet and news coverage, more people are aware of defense projects that in past years.

 

Going back to the F-4 Phantom development in the mid-late 50's. There were a lot of problems just getting it to fly. As pilots used to joke, ' the Phantom is living proof that given enough thrust you can make a brick fly'. Hence it's nickname 'The Flying Brick'. A lot of bad habits like pitch up etc. were fixed by physical aerodynamic adjustments to the airframe and wings. But they were simpler times and the systems weren't so complicated. Not much software for the Phantom, mainly just the stability augmentation computer to deal with roll coupling. When the Phantom went into a Dutch Roll, the pilot couldn't perform control inputs quick enough, so the computer did it. These days, they're trying to build a flying computer; the rest of it is all secondary.

 

Other stuff ups with the Phantom were caused by politicians and the Navy constantly changing the goal posts during development. As for the British Phantom debacle, best we don't even go there. The point is, in those days the average Joe Blow had very little idea all these problems were happening. Our exposure to media was very limited, so you could tell us anything and we would believe it. And stuff like defense acquisition wasn't newsworthy back then. We were too busy watching F Troop and Gilligan's Island to bother with it.

 

Fast forward to the F-35, we have the internet where the average Joe Blow can source any information and news via the web, and the print and TV media pack are desperately trying to compete, all the while knowing they can print or broadcast anything and we'll forget all about it tomorrow due to over saturation and information overload.

 

The F-35 might just be unfairly treated, and go on to become one of the most successful warplanes in history. And I might win the lotto.

 

Apart from all the problems - airframe, engine, software, operational capability, contractor supplied systems not living up to expectations etc., one can still look at the aerodynamics of it and see a short fat stubby thing with small wings and the word dud comes to mind.

 

The Gripen has my vote.