Incident 13 May 15

[Geoff13]

Let me add a few things post incident here.

 

1. As Silverwing said he and via him the factory was made aware of the situation almost immediately.

 

2. As required I within 24 hours submitted incident reports to ATSB and RAAus. Both these reports were really the bare facts as I knew them and as they applied on the day.

 

I very quickly received a notice of receipt from ATSM but nothing from RAAus. I sent these reports on Thursday AM and rang RAAus to check they had received theirs on Friday PM as I wanted to make sure that I had complied with the 48 hr instruction. I was told that if it had been submitted by the link on the web site than it would be emailed to someone who would not be in till the following Tuesday. This is a situation I was not happy about and I intend to address down the track. I did on the Tuesday send a follow up to my report to RAAus with further information that I had been able to get. I did receive notification that my report had been received that day and thanking me for the follow up information. There has been no further contact from RAAus except when I rang last week to find out what was happening and was told that it had been escalated and I would be kept informed. (None of this meets with I expected from our club/association) More about that later as well.

 

3. The factory almost immediately said that fuel pumps were not to be used if fitted and no more pumps would be fitted until an investigation had been conducted. (This response I believe was timely and appropriate).

 

4. This week and in fact since this thread started (I am not for a minute saying that this thread is the reason) the factory via the Australian agent has asked for more information and photographs of various items to help with their investigation. As has been said earlier they are taking this seriously and looking for answers.

 

5. I emailed the factory/designer personally and asked for some information. Mainly the wiring diagram and who fitted the pump. In response almost immediately I received a response from the designer of the aircraft with the wiring diagram but little further information. I understand that as this in their eyes is a very serious incident subject to an ongoing investigation they cannot give me to much. I am happy with what I have had and seen from the factory to date.

 

RAAus on the other hand at this point in time I am not to happy with.

 

I would have expected that an incident of this nature on a training/for hire aircraft would in the very least have gained an immediate response requesting that all similar aircraft have the wiring checked at least before next flight. At the time of the incident we were certainly unaware how many aircraft had Aux pumps or how they had been wired. I would have been a 30 minute check to see if they had been wired correctly. I certainly did not expect my report to go unsighted for at least 5 days. What the hell is the point of getting it in within 48 hours if no-one is going to look at it. Even now I would expect something to come out suggesting that people check the fitment of these devices and that they are suitably protected. If as someone here has stated they can be run to burning point without blowing a fuse that then causes a whole new set of problems. (I am not convinced that this is possible yet but I may just buy one and see if I can make it burn out).

 

Being our association I would have expected some action from RAAus by now. I understand that there have been a lot of incidents lately. (I also understand that they are under the pump to answer why. both safety and technical).

 

This incident on any other day and given just one more alignment of the holes in the Swiss cheese had the potential for disaster.

 

I may be wrong but personally I believe that the group responsible for the training, maintenance and registration of this class of aircraft and pilot should be responding better or in the very least keeping people informed of what they are doing if anything.

 

 

[storchy neil]

foxbat have failed to install rotax motors to the rotax manual sue your l2 or lame for not picking this problem

 

it is up to the plane builder to install rotax motors to installation manual and they have failed as there is no return line to tank as required by rotax

 

would some one please show or tell me when the rules manual stipulates that casa or raa have the power to change the installation rules and regulation

 

now maj raa have known about this problem for bloody years as this is one I will stake my life on

 

both raa and casa have refused to take notice

 

trike blokes that have 912 fitted you are not exempt

 

now its about time before oh shxx just don't take any notice neil

 

 

[turboplanner]

WRONG, if there is a low point in the line between the tank and the carburettor in any angle of flight.

If the head produces the same or greater pressure than a pump, the force is the same, so why is this wrong?

This is not applicable to aerobatics, just normal flight, and it is not syphoning, and I've tested pushing out low bubbles of air myself.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Geoff,

 

The fact you reported it to ATSB within the requested 48 hrs is what is driving this thing..that would trickle down to our Tech dept almost immediately via Email notification, which is why Darren may have responded to you with 'the matter has escalated'.

 

Obviously he is aware of the problem, and as you say there has been a hell of a lot on his plate lately with an unprecedented number of fatalities in the first six months of 2015....and they continue !!.....with one already in July.

 

Now your incident, as important as it is, doesn't involve a fatality, so no doubt it is a little down the list ATM for direct attention. I am not in any way trying to minimise the safety importance of your incident, as I'm sure Darren isn't either.

 

When there are a lot of fatal shooting Darren and Jill spend a lot of time on the road carrying out investigations on site right throughout the country which means they are away from their office often up to a week at a time.

 

I am sure your event will get the attention it deserves at the appropriate time.

 

 

[ozbear]

I wouldn't bother with the vaseline.

At least file the sharpe edges off.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Let me add a few things post incident here.1. As Silverwing said he and via him the factory was made aware of the situation almost immediately.

 

2. As required I within 24 hours submitted incident reports to ATSB and RAAus. Both these reports were really the bare facts as I knew them and as they applied on the day.

 

I very quickly received a notice of receipt from ATSM but nothing from RAAus. I sent these reports on Thursday AM and rang RAAus to check they had received theirs on Friday PM as I wanted to make sure that I had complied with the 48 hr instruction. I was told that if it had been submitted by the link on the web site than it would be emailed to someone who would not be in till the following Tuesday. This is a situation I was not happy about and I intend to address down the track. I did on the Tuesday send a follow up to my report to RAAus with further information that I had been able to get. I did receive notification that my report had been received that day and thanking me for the follow up information. There has been no further contact from RAAus except when I rang last week to find out what was happening and was told that it had been escalated and I would be kept informed. (None of this meets with I expected from our club/association) More about that later as well.

 

3. The factory almost immediately said that fuel pumps were not to be used if fitted and no more pumps would be fitted until an investigation had been conducted. (This response I believe was timely and appropriate).

 

4. This week and in fact since this thread started (I am not for a minute saying that this thread is the reason) the factory via the Australian agent has asked for more information and photographs of various items to help with their investigation. As has been said earlier they are taking this seriously and looking for answers.

 

5. I emailed the factory/designer personally and asked for some information. Mainly the wiring diagram and who fitted the pump. In response almost immediately I received a response from the designer of the aircraft with the wiring diagram but little further information. I understand that as this in their eyes is a very serious incident subject to an ongoing investigation they cannot give me to much. I am happy with what I have had and seen from the factory to date.

 

RAAus on the other hand at this point in time I am not to happy with.

 

I would have expected that an incident of this nature on a training/for hire aircraft would in the very least have gained an immediate response requesting that all similar aircraft have the wiring checked at least before next flight. At the time of the incident we were certainly unaware how many aircraft had Aux pumps or how they had been wired. I would have been a 30 minute check to see if they had been wired correctly. I certainly did not expect my report to go unsighted for at least 5 days. What the hell is the point of getting it in within 48 hours if no-one is going to look at it. Even now I would expect something to come out suggesting that people check the fitment of these devices and that they are suitably protected. If as someone here has stated they can be run to burning point without blowing a fuse that then causes a whole new set of problems. (I am not convinced that this is possible yet but I may just buy one and see if I can make it burn out).

 

Being our association I would have expected some action from RAAus by now. I understand that there have been a lot of incidents lately. (I also understand that they are under the pump to answer why. both safety and technical).

 

This incident on any other day and given just one more alignment of the holes in the Swiss cheese had the potential for disaster.

 

I may be wrong but personally I believe that the group responsible for the training, maintenance and registration of this class of aircraft and pilot should be responding better or in the very least keeping people informed of what they are doing if anything.

Geoff13 .....I have PMed you...........

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

All ....I have made contacts to see where this important situation current sits within our safety network and will be communicating directly with Geoff the pilot involved in the incident. Back when I know more.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Let me add a few things post incident here.1. As Silverwing said he and via him the factory was made aware of the situation almost immediately.

 

2. As required I within 24 hours submitted incident reports to ATSB and RAAus. Both these reports were really the bare facts as I knew them and as they applied on the day.

 

I very quickly received a notice of receipt from ATSM but nothing from RAAus. I sent these reports on Thursday AM and rang RAAus to check they had received theirs on Friday PM as I wanted to make sure that I had complied with the 48 hr instruction. I was told that if it had been submitted by the link on the web site than it would be emailed to someone who would not be in till the following Tuesday. This is a situation I was not happy about and I intend to address down the track. I did on the Tuesday send a follow up to my report to RAAus with further information that I had been able to get. I did receive notification that my report had been received that day and thanking me for the follow up information. There has been no further contact from RAAus except when I rang last week to find out what was happening and was told that it had been escalated and I would be kept informed. (None of this meets with I expected from our club/association) More about that later as well.

 

3. The factory almost immediately said that fuel pumps were not to be used if fitted and no more pumps would be fitted until an investigation had been conducted. (This response I believe was timely and appropriate).

 

4. This week and in fact since this thread started (I am not for a minute saying that this thread is the reason) the factory via the Australian agent has asked for more information and photographs of various items to help with their investigation. As has been said earlier they are taking this seriously and looking for answers.

 

5. I emailed the factory/designer personally and asked for some information. Mainly the wiring diagram and who fitted the pump. In response almost immediately I received a response from the designer of the aircraft with the wiring diagram but little further information. I understand that as this in their eyes is a very serious incident subject to an ongoing investigation they cannot give me to much. I am happy with what I have had and seen from the factory to date.

 

RAAus on the other hand at this point in time I am not to happy with.

 

I would have expected that an incident of this nature on a training/for hire aircraft would in the very least have gained an immediate response requesting that all similar aircraft have the wiring checked at least before next flight. At the time of the incident we were certainly unaware how many aircraft had Aux pumps or how they had been wired. I would have been a 30 minute check to see if they had been wired correctly. I certainly did not expect my report to go unsighted for at least 5 days. What the hell is the point of getting it in within 48 hours if no-one is going to look at it. Even now I would expect something to come out suggesting that people check the fitment of these devices and that they are suitably protected. If as someone here has stated they can be run to burning point without blowing a fuse that then causes a whole new set of problems. (I am not convinced that this is possible yet but I may just buy one and see if I can make it burn out).

 

Being our association I would have expected some action from RAAus by now. I understand that there have been a lot of incidents lately. (I also understand that they are under the pump to answer why. both safety and technical).

 

This incident on any other day and given just one more alignment of the holes in the Swiss cheese had the potential for disaster.

 

I may be wrong but personally I believe that the group responsible for the training, maintenance and registration of this class of aircraft and pilot should be responding better or in the very least keeping people informed of what they are doing if anything.

Geoff

 

I reckon it would be good to send your story into the mag editor to share the experience with all of us and others who read it and include the outcome to date; as being that owners and pilots verify that any electric fuel pumps fitted are protected by the appropriate manufactures fuse rating / circuit breaker etc. Maj would I'm sure, be happy and good person to proof read your draft prior to being sent to the editor and may be able to prioritise its inclusion in the next possible edition. You story will need to shorten up some what for the mag i'd guess. Doing the mag article will speed up sharing the matter with us. I concur with Ross that the RAA office must be extremely busy and that the manufacturer and agent are on to it as quickly as possible.

 

On another matter I'd guess that as the switch was off it may have damaged by heat due to the current draw that melted its interior contacts in the closed positon; you'll need to look at that as well.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

GeoffI reckon it would be good to send your story into the mag editor to share the experience with all of us and others who read it and include the outome to date as being that owners and pilots verify that any electric fuel pumps fitted are protected by the appropriate manufactures fuse / circuit breaker etc. Maj would I'm sure be happy and good person to proof read your draft prior to being sent to the editor and may be able to prioritise its inclusion in the next possible edition. You story will need to shorten up some waht for the mag i'd guess. Doing the mag articale will speed up sharing the matter with us. I concur with Ross that the RAA office must be extremely busy and that the manufacturer and agent are on to it as quickly as possible.

 

On another matter I'd guess that as the switch was off it may have damaged by heat due to the current draw that melted its interior contacts in the closed positon; you'll need to look at that as well.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

Good idea Mike ...and yes I'd be happy to assist getting that into the magazine for Geoff.

 

 

[facthunter]

Vapour in a fuel line is formed from the fuel, (not air) usually by raised temps. Pressuring the fuel works the same as a pressure cap on a radiator, in affecting vaporisation. A head of fuel (or any liquid) only applies pressure progressively most at the bottom, none at the top. It takes over 40 feet of fuel head to get one bar . 14.7 psi. You are lucky to get 4 feet in a gravity system. (1.5 psi). Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Fix the cause of the vaporisation, otherwise all you'll do is shift the problem to the float valve and have fuel coming out of the bowl overflows.

 

 

[facthunter]

Move to Sweden and run on avgas? Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Vapour in a fuel line is formed from the fuel, (not air) usually by raised temps. Pressuring the fuel works the same as a pressure cap on a radiator, in affecting vaporisation. A head of fuel (or any liquid) only applies pressure progressively most at the bottom, none at the top. It takes over 40 feet of fuel head to get one bar . 14.7 psi. You are lucky to get 4 feet in a gravity system. (1.5 psi). Nev

Your forgetting that the engine driven pump is sucking on it also, easily producing the low pressure supply required for the Bing carbs.

 

 

[facthunter]

The EDP may contribute to vapour lock if the fuel not flowing fast enough upstream of it. The returning fuel concept is designed to keep things cooler . Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The EDP may contribute to vapour lock if the fuel not flowing fast enough. Nev

Anythings possible but generally they don't work that way, especially when there is a vapid return line back to the tank.

 

 

[facthunter]

I edited my previous before your post above. You only overpressure if you use the wrong type of pump. The system pump is the same (or a bit less) pressure than the EDP and only works if the engine pump fails but it DOES pressure the entire system due to it's location in or near the tank. A high flow/volume gravity in a high wing is good with the back up pump near a smaller aux (gascolator?) tank .Best of both worlds with about 40 minutes fuel in that tank.. Nev

 

 

[rhtrudder]

I have always carried a small , half kilo, fire extinguisher within easy reach with me just in case . After reading the nightmare that Geoff went through I found out the thing was 3 years out of date and didn't work at all. Does everyone else carry one?

 

 

[Geoff13]

rhtrudder

 

I am certainly fitting one to my plane and have just this purchased a small half kilo one that will travel in my flight bag in future if I am in any other aircraft.

 

Fire extinguishers like many things in life do sadly have a shelf life and must be kept serviced and up to date. For DG cartage in road transport they need an annual inspection, I shall be adding Fire extinguisher check to my 100 hourly/annual inspection check list.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Yesterday I went flying in the same aircraft. "She who must be obeyed" came with me.

 

The plan was to go to Murgon for breakfast and then on to a private strip for afternoon tea.

 

As we got close to Murgon the fog closed in so we hung around over Goomeri to see what would happen. When it became obvious that it was not clearing we headed over to Gympie and landed there for a cuppa then flew home to Caboolture.

 

Julie was highly aware of everything that was going on within and outside the aircraft. She was certainly more willing than ever before to ask questions and expect logical answers.

 

The low fuel light in this Foxbat tends to flicker a little will 20 litres still left. So at Glasshouse Mtns ie 8 nm from Caboolture when the left tank light flickered a couple of times I did get the third degree on my fuel management strategy. She did seem to settle once I explained that I had been on the right tank for 20 mins and would land on the right tank barring mishaps. It was the first time she had ever supervised my checking of fuel on landing and was happy to see that I was quite correct and we had 20 and 22 litres in port and strb tanks. She was happy throughout the flight but did remind me that flying was my passion and not to expect her to go every time. After her initial fear of flying and the past incident I think that is the best result we could have had. At least she didn't get out a Gympie and ask me to drive back and get after I landed.

 

I must admit I made absolutely certain to include her in everything from the planning to the fueling at the end. I also made sure that she was aware that this was her flight and all she had to do was ask and I would land at the nearest strip and organise a car to get her home. I think this gave her some feeling of control. So no she wasn't a bubbling ball of excitement but then nor was she a gibbering wreck and I suspect that on bright shiny windless days she will be more than happy to go up again. A bloke can't ask for much more than that really.

 

 

[biggles]

I think that was a good decision , having regard to her recent experience Geoff . It may take some time but things should not be rushed ....... Bob

[Old Koreelah]

I have always carried a small , half kilo, fire extinguisher within easy reach with me just in case . After reading the nightmare that Geoff went through I found out the thing was 3 years out of date and didn't work at all. Does everyone else carry one?

I carried an aerosol extinguisher (made in Tasmania) until it was well out of date, then replaced it with a proper aircraft one, plumbed into the engine bay.

 

 

[facthunter]

Carbonated drinks make a reasonable extinguisher where water is suitable. If it's a tin put a small hole in it only and shake it like you are on a podium at the end of a race. Nev

 

 

[gandalph]

I like it Nev, but using carbonated soft drink gets you out of one sticky situation and into another.

 

 

[rhtrudder]

The one I use cost $26 from supercheap , comes with a plastic holder which I riveted below my control stick but also added extra duct tape to hold it in place , wouldn't want it rolling around under the rudder pedals. The 914 fuel set up in my plane uses 2 electric pumps plumbed together but are powered separately inside the cabin behind the instrument panel, I've always been worried about a fire behind the panel and petrol feeding the fire

 

 

[Maritime_Ev]

I have always carried a small , half kilo, fire extinguisher within easy reach with me just in case . After reading the nightmare that Geoff went through I found out the thing was 3 years out of date and didn't work at all. Does everyone else carry one?

Isn't there a requirement to have a fire extinguisher on board? It's usually on the pre-flight checklist I thought, "check charge and date", perhaps that was only company SOP. In any case a good thing to have handy, probably not so much for use in the air but more to buy some time for post crash evacuation (be it your own airplane or someone elses). Tried one during my last firefighting course and it is surprising how well even half a kilo of powder works. And while you're in the shop buying one for your airplane get one for in the car as well... It might mean the difference between pulling someone out of a wreck or being unable to do anything.