U.S. Midair: Cessna and F-16

[Guest SrPilot]

MOA's in this instance are a red herring. The nearest MOA was 15 miles away. Even if an F-16 that is a significant distance.

As I said earlier, Nobody, I do not know but someone earlier had suggested that I was mistaken and alone in mentioning MOAs. I replied that I did not "know" but that I was not alone. E.g., from one of my earlier postings, Note the "I don't know yet whether the collision actually happened within the MOA or outside it." Neither do I.

 

But media sources were mentioning MOAs. I provided a link to one as an example. And I mentioned that the midair might have occurred outside an MOA but that transitioning occurs all of the time and we do not always know precisely whether we are in or outside of an MOA.

 

So, my sources may have been wrong to mention MOAs; I haven't seen a plot of the point-of-impact or the nearest MOAs. I do know that the area is quite busy with both military and civilian traffic. So let's just say that I am wrong to even mention that MOAs have been mentioned (despite the fact that others have mentioned the same possibility). Mistakes? I once thought I made mistakes until I found out that I was mistaken.

 

But "red herring"? I understand a red herring (in southern U.S. English at least) to mean "something unimportant that is used to stop people from noticing or thinking about something important" (Merriam-Webster dictionary) or "something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand" (Dictionary.com).

 

I respectfully suggest that on my part at least (and methinks on the part of the sources I saw which mentioned MOAs) that the mention of MOAs was not intended to mislead, divert attention, or stop people from noticing anything. We have been (and are) engaged in a dialogue and I was responding to a question about why a C-150 and an F-16 would be at the same altitude. Military use airspace is one locale where same-altitude conflicts can occur. I've been there on that one; we saw and avoided as we should have. Whether this incident occurred in an MOA location or not, my mention of MOAs was not intended to mislead, divert attention, or stop anyone from noticing something important. Personally, I believe the whole discussion of mixed civilian-military use of MOAs, control zones, airport traffic patterns, or uncontrolled airspace is very important. Judging from the articles, brochures, and pamphlets we see from the military and the FAA, I surmise that they to believe the conversation is worthwhile.

 

I might also mention that another part of the U.S. national airspace where same-altitude conflicts may occur more frequently than in other more controlled airspace is below 3k feet altitude AGL. In such flight, FAR 91-159 which sets the VFR flight altitudes does not apply. I quote:

 

"Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:

 

(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and—

 

(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or

 

(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).

 

(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC."

 

Ergo, in low level flight, we need our eyes outside the cockpit. Other birds - airplanes and just plain old birds - are out there and they may be at our altitude. I've had a few experiences there. Always avoided the other airplanes. Not so successful with the birds though. I always heard they'd drop so don't dive, and I've seen them do exactly that. Two did not. Oops.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

cruising levels go out the window if one or both were on approach to an aerodrome (suggestions the Jet may have been doing instrument training).

 

This is a problem with E airspace (not saying this happened in E), one aircraft "under control" of ATC and another going about his business without needing to tell anyone of his intentions

 

 

[fly_tornado]

good luck spotting an F16 at speed. that grey coloured camouflage works real well.

 

 

[facthunter]

Most pilots don't know how to react to a target aircraft in their windscreen. If it remains in the same place you are going to collide. If it is moving, manoeuver to make it move more. As Sr said pitch gives a quicker change than a roll and turn but if you pull back you may lose sight of the other aircraft. See and be seen is a faint hope. Every investigation shows it's lack of consistency, but it's all you have most times. Learn how to scan properly. Vertical separation works well in most situations. The sky is big doesn't always mean anything. Avoid tracks which have aircraft climbing and descending on them. Fly abeam preferred. GNSS nav makes more collisions likely as everyone is on track. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

Most pilots don't know how to react to a target aircraft in their windscreen. If it remains in the same place you are going to collide. If it is moving, manoeuver to make it move more. As Sr said pitch gives a quicker change than a roll and turn but if you pull back you may lose sight of the other aircraft. See and be seen is a faint hope. Every investigation shows it's lack of consistency, but it's all you have most times. Learn how to scan properly. Vertical separation works well in most situations. The sky is big doesn't always mean anything. Avoid tracks which have aircraft climbing and descending on them. Fly abeam preferred. GNSS nav makes more collisions likely as everyone is on track. Nev

This is a great question? Do I nose down and keep him in sight even though I know he is there? Or do I nose up and hopefully give him more chance to see me? It is a bit of a conundrum really. Is there a preferred option?

 

 

[skeptic36]

What if he sees you and noses down also.....

 

I'll be banking right thanks.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

Given the closing speed and pilots reaction time coupled with the visual profile of the F 16 it's all over.

 

Dare I say, not a lot to be learned here so let's move on

 

 

[Geoff13]

Given the closing speed and pilots reaction time coupled with the visual profile of the F 16 it's all over.Dare I say, not a lot to be learned here so let's move on

I disagree that there is not a lot to learn. True that at the closing speed of the F16 it may be all over before you see him but if it is another RAAus plane and we both react the right way someone here might just learn something that could save thier ar$e

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

W

 

I disagree that there is not a lot to learn. True that at the closing speed of the F16 it may be all over before you see him but if it is another RAAus plane and we both react the right way someone here might just learn something that could save thier ar$e

We have had enough RAA accidents and fatalities lately here in Aus to analyse and pontificate about without spending time waffling on about a one off over in the U.S.

 

It's a bit like our Media padding out their news reports with some obscure house fire in Southern Georgia rather than providing Accurate and timely reporting on a local newsworthy event.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Rule is change heading not altitude. but in the real word do whatever it takes.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Interesting questions, ever thought of studying the Civil Aviation Regulations you fly under?

 

 

[facthunter]

The rule is both turn right but in some situations that may cause a collision. If you are head on central it's perfect. If you are overtaking also. Not all situations are the same. The key is the changing presentation on the screen. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

Yes turn right is the rule but as Ozzie said do whatever it takes, BUT remember if you did NOT turn right and things don't work out, you WILL be run through the ringer (assuming you aren't dead!) possibly in front of the coroner so you need a VERY good reason for not turning right.

 

 

[facthunter]

There are plenty of articles dealing with what I've attempted to articulate. You won't have a lot of time in these situations to do it, so while thinking about what the "Inquiry" may decide is a good thing in affecting how you plan things aviation , this is one instance where you must act quickly or you may be very dead. As far as I'm concerned it's basic airmanship. Like not being places where traffic might descend /climb into your path, and keeping a good lookout always. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

I have had 3 close encounters with F 1 11s over the years in Australia and I can say you would have no chance of avoiding them if you were unlucky enough to be on a collision course. Those things used to cruze around at 400 knts at low level, as low as 200ft. On one occasion I was descending into Kilcoy airfield in a Drifter and flew in between 2 Kestrel ultralight aircraft going in the opposite direction and climbing these were all slow flying aircraft but they went past so quick you would not be able to avoid them, I thought I missed them by about 100ft. If you are descending and an aircraft is climbing towards you and the background is the terrain it is almost impossible to see that aircraft. I wound be amazed if the F 16 pilot bailed before the collision.

 

 

[Akromaster]

While flying towards Lilydale from SE, I had a mil plane (not sure what it was) fly a few hundred feet underneath me going the other way. I probably only saw him because he was lower and his grey was easier to spot against the green terrain below.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

It is possible the press mean bailed out before impacting ground.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

something different to think about.

 

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

t

 

Those things used to cruze around at 400 knts at low level, as low as 200ft.

.

When operating on a LJR your usually in a tactical formation (in spread by 1.5nm) & flying at 480kts G/S or what ever you need to make the time on target, i.e. much faster if you've been bounced by the defenders. Don't worry fighters have very good radars & they are constantly searching ahead of then at a significant range from the ground up to 60,000ft, yes they will be able to paint you in your recreational a/c. Can't speak on behalf of the B111.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

something different to think about.

Yes a couple of years ago a USAF pilot I met was telling me about just missing a base jumper (!) off the wing while he was doing a terrain following exercise at a good rate of knots in a C-130.

 

 

[Kiwi303]

I've had a RNZAF C130 out of Blenheim/Woodbourne go down the valley BELOW me while on the quad on the ridgeline of the farm, following the Buller River that forms one boundary of the farm.

 

 

[nong]

W

We have had enough RAA accidents and fatalities lately here in Aus to analyse and pontificate about without spending time waffling on about a one off over in the U.S.

 

It's a bit like our Media padding out their news reports with some obscure house fire in Southern Georgia rather than providing Accurate and timely reporting on a local newsworthy event.

I agree.

For the record, not a "one off".

 

An A6 Intruder butted heads with a fully loaded Ag-Cat. Grumman vs Grumman. A6 crew punched out and the jet cratered. The ag pilot rode her down........and survived !! ...pretty sore, though.

 

 

[nong]

And for some all-aussie context, lets go to Forest Hill RAAF Base, Wagga.

 

The year is 1953. A local private pilot takes off in one of Eric Condon's Tigers. At about two hundred feet on climb out, without warning, a tremendous impact. The wings dissolve and the fuselage is savagely slashed, right behind the pilot's seat! Tiger and pilot plunge to earth.

 

He has been taken out by a flight of Hawker Sea Furies that are supposed to be transiting from Uranquinty to Nowra, at altitude. The flight leader decided on an impromptu beat up of Forest Hill. It cost him his life. His Sea Fury bellied in near the Murrumbidgee but he had been fatally wounded in the impact with the Tiger. Meanwhile, the club pilot, somewhat bloodied, dragged himself from the wreckage and was soon back in the air.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I agree.For the record, not a "one off".

An A6 Intruder butted heads with a fully loaded Ag-Cat. Grumman vs Grumman. A6 crew punched out and the jet cratered. The ag pilot rode her down........and survived !! ...pretty sore, though.

Bloody 'Eck Nong ! Shame I never heard about that one mate, I'd have got the Agcat guy to choose me tattslotto numbers . . . .! Sod the A6 crew, they've both got ByeBye chairs. . .

 

My mate Gordon had just taken off from Shobdon In Herefordshire, flying an Alpha flexwing plus student ( just up the road from the sas base Incidentally ) and at 400 feet climbing out from 27 grass left, was hit from behind by a lady on her second solo in a C-150, who had inadvertantly drifted left from 27 Hard. . . this chopped the flexwing about somewhat as you'd imagine, breaking some cables and the thing spiralled down. Gordy and student got away with that, only injuries were two broken fingers which Gordon did himself, whilst desperately hanging on to what was left of the "A" frame, and his student broke an ankle extricating himself from the wreckage. . .regrettably, the lady got a faceful of control yoke, dived vertically into a ploughed field and did not survive.

 

I didn't want to go too far off topic with this story, but three months following this incident, I was flying with Gordon doing some "Advanced" flexwing flying training, ie, following the Wye river's twists and turns at around 200 feet etc. . . . and on the return flight to Shobdon at 1500 feet we had a Nato Hawk trainer fly past us on the left side, pretty damn close, I would guess around fifty feet away, he then did a roll and climbed steeply and disappeared, the pilot MUST have seen us. . . . We both could smell the jet exhaust afterwards.

 

However, A Head On,. . . .and they all survived, I'd love to see some statistics because I'll wager there have not been many similar events which were surviveable.

 

Phil

 

 

[Teckair]

t.

When operating on a LJR your usually in a tactical formation (in spread by 1.5nm) & flying at 480kts G/S or what ever you need to make the time on target, i.e. much faster if you've been bounced by the defenders. Don't worry fighters have very good radars & they are constantly searching ahead of then at a significant range from the ground up to 60,000ft, yes they will be able to paint you in your recreational a/c. Can't speak on behalf of the B111.

 

The first time I saw one up close was in the Atherton Tablelands, I rang the airforce about it and was told it would not have been there, so where is a LJR? my answer would be everywhere. It happened another time at Childers and I was told the same thing "it wouldn't have been there". It appeared as though these guys were going where ever they felt like.

 

As for your comments about radar that is not what the Air Force said, I was told the F 1 11 does not have a radar that can see other aircraft. I was told the pilots relied on see and be seen to avoid other aircraft. All this at 400 kts and low level it is a wonder nobody got taken out by these cowboys.