diesel Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Welcome aboard Chas. You'll find some familiar faces on this forum. Your beast got a couple of mentions recently (http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/ecofly-diesel-aero-engine.136625/page-2#post-504668)but some thought it was based on a D-18. I'm sure there are plenty of people interested in what you've learned about adapting an automotive Diesel engine to an aircraft. Thanks for that Lyle, my Jodel is a D150 hybrid. The D18 bit comes from the scaled wing and tailplane. The aircraft is really a new design. Engine as you know is Peugeot. The whole project has been quite a big learning curve. As always the ones who have not done it yet offer the most advice. It lifts off at 40 mph and 600 feet. Very gentle and positive in the air. Will flt easily at 1950 rpm.Has a normal jodel wooden prop. Chas 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I have had a look throug this thread on diesel fuel issues. It can get quite cold at times. Imagine if all the diesels got stuck up on the ski fields. BP say their winter diesel is good to minus 15c. After that pour in some additive or jetA thats good to minus 40c. Add 1 percent oil for pump lube. Diesel is quite different to fly. Well mine is. Take off revs do not exceed static. That will be pump governor setting, torque increases as RPMdrops, only 3 or 4 hp loss as RPM fall 3 or 400 RPM. Propeller changes will be interesting. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Jet Commercial aircraft have fuel heaters and have to use them quite often They do fly in colder air but their speed helps offset the OAT. figure considerably. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Nev a lot of eurodiesels have fuel heated with the filter mounted on top of the water thermostat housing. A lot of fuel is circulated through the fuel return to the tank. If all keeps working well I should be able to fly for nz$16.00 per hour. Astealth Jodel, on the ground people say they hardly hear it. Chas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Our diesel fuel(Aus) is not the worlds best. It would be hard to know what you are getting, at times.. I think some form of fuel heater would be the go. They are usually quiet in the exhaust particularly with a turbocharger. Aircooled ones are significantly more noisy (Near the engine itself) You don't have ignition system problems either.. They have much higher pressures and forces to deal with so weight comes into it..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 5kg heavier than a 2.5 subaru. Very little fuel weight at 10 litres per hour. Two hours flight time makes C 0200 the same weight as 18 year old cast irion eurodiesel. After that diesel gets lighter. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I don't know what your AUW is. 544 Kgs wouldn't permit using it. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 600 kg Nev. We have carbon cubs flying as micro. However interesting as kit manufactures alter weights to suit various markets with the same airframe. The Jodel was to be an empty weight 1000 lb micro but is now flying as amature built. Have you seen Serge Pennec gazaile from France. It grew out of Dieselis. Chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 One of the advantages of going over even 600 Kgs is the option of more power units. The engine is often half the cost of the plane. No I haven't seen the info you refer to. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Serge sells plans for Gazaile with looks like a wooden MCR. He says it can be built complete with overhauled peugeot diesel for less cost than a rotax engine. Several years ago he put one into an early Coyote. If 5 litres of diesel per hour sounds like you this is the answer. My son in Perth tells me of one of Otto Funks smart diesels going into a Grob 109 motor glider. Chas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Hi Guys, an update on the diesel. All ok, wx has stuffed up a lot of flying but seem to average 1.5 hrs when it goes out. Fuel burn is higher than the froggies are getting. Fuel all in at 2000rpm. Cruise 3/3300 rpm engine. Prop 22/2400 and cruise boost 12 lb = 15 litres per hour. So a bit under that in $nz. No issues at this time but dont believe the petrolheads regarding cooling pipe and rad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nig71 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 All the talk of wax point in diesel, would it not be simple to add a thermostat controlled heater. It's kinda the same solution as carby icing . Would you just have to heat the injector pump plus line prior to filter? Diesels really interest me as I live on a farm and want to get a plane to act as a farm ute. Fuel significantly cheaper without road exice. Has there been any progress on the Gemini diesel. Seems news dried up two years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Nah, electric is the way of the future. Bit hard to find electron pumps in the bush but...just sayin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Bit hard to find electron pumps in the bush but...just sayin On the contrary, Robinsm. Out in the bush you're more likely to get lots of sunny weather on your solar chargers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Jets have to heat avtur and auto diesel is far more waxy You would have to heat the whole tank if you fly high. Avgas has a tax on it. It's supposed to pay for CASA. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Nig, read up about biofuel diesel cars. The ones where they use "fish&chip" vegetable oil. Some mix with diesel/mineral oils ...... Some start on normal diesel fuel and run the exhaust or coolant through the bio tank to heat it up then switch over when up to temp. Maybe you could start it on kero and heat the diesel tank as above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 As an example, if you fuelled up in Darwin (Savflyer's home base) in September the Cloud Point (when waxing occurs) is 15 deg C and fly to Brisbane were diesel is managed down to 2 deg C you could have a real problem. Alternatively you take a September batch of Darwin diesel on a 25 deg day to 5000 ft you could be pressing the boundary of the fuel remaining liquid. Not forgetting that the difference between months going from summer into the winter months will make things much worse. In darwin the Cloud Point drops from 15 deg in Feb to 8 deg in just over 60 days.Even in WA, your home base, there is 15 deg difference between Port Hedland and Perth between Feb and March, which is worse than between Darwin and Brisbane. There is roughly only around 8-10 deg protection between cloud point and normal low ambient day temps and waxing within the same geographic areas. I suggest that you don't need to start flying in extreme climatic conditions to expose yourself to some considerable risk. I agree that diesel fuel would/will have to be "managed" so as to minimise waxing however once started and warmed up every diesel that I have had anything to do with "bleeds/bypass" fuel back to the tank. This fuel is hot fo a conventional (old style) diesel & very very hot for a common rail (my Ranger has a fuel cooler on the tank return line). In Australian winter/altitude conditions this should be more than enough to keep the diesel in the tank wax free. Various other valid methods of winterising diesel have been mentioned in this conversation 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Diesel aero engines aren't anything new. They were used for long range stuff. 70 years ago There was a ZOD radial and Packard made a radial in the 30's. plus some Junkers in bombers. Radials suit diesel with high compression as each cylinder is doing almost the opposite of the one next to it. so the pulses tend to even out. Personally I wouldn't go down that road. They tend to be noisy ( especially aircooled ones) and they need to be extra strong to withstand the internal stresses. so end up heavy. You would also need to supercharge them for higher altitudes, or they would really drop off in power. I doubt they would be long lifed as you have to make them as light as possible. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Diesel aero engines aren't anything new. They were used for long range stuff. 70 years ago There was a ZOD radial and Packard made a radial in the 30's. plus some Junkers in bombers. Radials suit diesel with high compression as each cylinder is doing almost the opposite of the one next to it. so the pulses tend to even out. Personally I wouldn't go down that road. They tend to be noisy ( especially aircooled ones) and they need to be extra strong to withstand the internal stresses. so end up heavy. You would also need to supercharge them for higher altitudes, or they would really drop off in power. I doubt they would be long lifed as you have to make them as light as possible. Nev Hi Facthunter - I have been a diesel freak for about 50 years now (don't really know why) and am astonished at how compression ratios have come down with the advent of high pressure common rail, turbo charging and computer fuel/burn management. Just a few years ago it was common to have 22:1 ratios (particularly in indirect injection engines). We are now getting ratios down to 16:1. This is getting close to the old high compression petrol racing engines. I dont know but would speculate that there has been a corresponding reduction in the traditional diesel engine "massive" construction/weight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Apologies to one & all - seems like I must have kill this debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Hi SkippyD "- seems like I must have kill this debate" Do you mean "have killed this debate" or "Will have to kill this debate". Just to make certain I haven't put My foot in it again!. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Hi Facthunter - I have been a diesel freak for about 50 years now (don't really know why) and am astonished at how compression ratios have come down with the advent of high pressure common rail, turbo charging and computer fuel/burn management. Just a few years ago it was common to have 22:1 ratios (particularly in indirect injection engines). We are now getting ratios down to 16:1. This is getting close to the old high compression petrol racing engines. I dont know but would speculate that there has been a corresponding reduction in the traditional diesel engine "massive" construction/weight. Dont give up, Skippy. There's still plenty of interest in diesels. Last year I heard that Mitsubishi is producing a very light low-compression diesel. I recall reading of about 13:1, which must involve a lot of turbo boost. I have a part-built 75% replica of a Mitsubishi A6M which I had intended fitting with a Peugeot diesel. Keeping it the Three Diamonds family would be nicer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Sorry Spacesailor -not to self must proof read my (dyslexic) utterances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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