Hi, I've started my flight training

[Happyflyer]

The simplest way is to make sure your wing is

Yep, I always make sure my wing is

 

 

[frank marriott]

The bottom line is if someone is doing a wide circuit (probably training) is it that big of a problem really? When one is flying RA type aircraft it is only for enjoyment so time is not that important so you just slow down and slot into the circuit. Your whole flight apart from take off & landing is outside gliding distance of that strip.

 

Always a discussion point but not a big thing at least IMO.

 

Not touching the busy class D type training areas - gets a bit more involved.

 

 

[Nightmare]

I just went on google earth and checked a typical circuit I might fly in an RAAus aircraft such as a Jabiru or Sportstar at my local airfield. The furthest I go away from the middle of the runway was 1.1nm when turning base. This was a generous cct. I would suggest 2.2nm from the middle of the runway is a long, long way. If you lose 500 ft per minute at about 60 knots you won't make it back to the runway. How about others? Measure your cct distance on google earth using the ruler, what size ccts are people flying?

When you're 1000' up, it looks further away, I guess it was only 1 nm away

[Happyflyer]

The bottom line is if someone is doing a wide circuit (probably training) is it that big of a problem really? When one is flying RA type aircraft it is only for enjoyment so time is not that important so you just slow down and slot into the circuit. Your whole flight apart from take off & landing is outside gliding distance of that strip.Always a discussion point but not a big thing at least IMO.

Not touching the busy class D type training areas - gets a bit more involved.

When you are a student paying for cct lessons it is definitely a big deal if you only get in 6 cct instead of 10 because the guy in front of you thinks he is flying a 747. Check out this video

 

watch the gold bars on his shoulder!

[Geoff13]

Hmm interesting. I just did the google earth thing as suggested by Happyflyer. I would think that I would never be more than about 1.1 to 1.25 klms from the cct in a glide approach cct. That is in the foxbat.

 

In a J230 it would be closer to 2 klms on turning base.

 

In the drifter it would be no more than 0.75 klms.

 

What I didn't realise was how much different my circuits were in different aircraft until I actually measured my turning points on google earth.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Happyflyer

 

I hear you. I did my training in what is now called class C, so allowing for other training, charter, RPT and sometimes RAAF traffic was all part of the game. Making accurate rate 1 orbits etc can be good training too.

 

Overall I didn't think it really made a lot of difference.

 

 

[djpacro]

 

Typical circuits at Moorabbin - final turn 0.8 - 1.2 nm out from the piano keys if my arithmetic is correct. Some instructors get students to turn base over the little lake at Braeside so a tad further out.

 

(Interesting that most parallel roads rather than fly with reference to the runway.)

 

 

[dazza 38]

I used to fly circuits at Archerfield in a Piper Archer, when I had a C150 in front of us we didnt have a choice, we either slowed downed to their airspeed or we flew a wider circuit to keep station to them. Its not a problem, we are all aviators.

 

 

[2tonne]

The aircraft that I saw doing huge circuits was VH registered. On 25 we ended up turning base out near the point while we were following this aircraft. At least there were no parachute ops at the time!

 

 

[Pearo]

Well, it wasn't me, mine were tight. Took off at Runway 25 at best rate climb, 200' flaps up, turn right xwind at 500' head to the bulge in the mangroves, turn downwind and level off at 1000' at the bulge and aim for Scarborough Point. At 45 degrees to the end of the runway, turn base and start descent with flaps. Turn final at 600 or 500', and land, touch and go. I don't think I was more than 2 nm from the runway at any point. This was my routine for 55 minutes. My instructor was telling me when to commence my turns for most of the circuits, so I doubt it was me.Tony.

Dont get me wrong, not accusing you (or your instructor) of being the local pain in the arse!!! The joy of rental and training aircraft is they are used by many an instructor and student. I have been guilty of being the pain in the arse once or twice also (ask me about landing on 07 one morning when the surface wind was favouring 25).

 

 

[Pearo]

I used to fly circuits at Archerfield in a Piper Archer, when I had a C150 in front of us we didnt have a choice, we either slowed downed to their airspeed or we flew a wider circuit to keep station to them. Its not a problem, we are all aviators.

I did a few Touch and Goes at YBAF the week before last. Unlike the Gold Coast, where ATC encourage you to make best speed, they dont do that at YBAF. So I was turning base and staring at another aircraft turning base on the other runway and freaking out, and the natural tendancy is to slow down and turn final early. Me freaking out and flying slow resulted in 2 other aircraft having to go around. I was the pain in the butt that day. I have overflown YBAF several times now, but never landed there, so it was all new to me. To top it off, I was already flying an extended downwind due to a proceeding aircraft. YBAF is busy!! Anyway, the result is that I am going to make a point of doing a touch and go every time I fly through Archerfield now, only to gain experience and confidence. I will stop when I am personally confident.

 

 

[Geoff13]

I landed at Toowoomba today. No ATC but still terrified me. An airfield in the middle of a city, it must be hard to land there mustn't it. In hindsight actually no it wasn't any different to any other airfield. It was actually all in my mind. Isnt it amazing how perception can change almost everything.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

HappyflyerI hear you. I did my training in what is now called class C, so allowing for other training, charter, RPT and sometimes RAAF traffic was all part of the game. Making accurate rate 1 orbits etc can be good training too.

Overall I didn't think it really made a lot of difference.

I agree you have to be flexible enough to cope with all that and it's good training. It's just frustrating being behind some one in similar aircraft and flying ccts so big you don't have to start a decent until well after you turn final! It's unnecessary and unsafe in my book.

 

 

[rankamateur]

The simplest way is to make sure your wing ( in a low wing aircraft) has the runway within one third of your span under the wing from the tip. In a high wing I have the runway one third up the wing strut. It is a bit hard to explain in words but doing his way, shows that that if further away from the strip, you will be higher above ground if you get the same "picture" from looking from your pilots seat. This sight picture doesnt work in a right hand circuit flying from the left hand seat.

Don't these guidelines depend how high you sit in the seat? At 190 cm I might get a different view to someone pilot sized.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Don't these guidelines depend how high you sit in the seat? At 190 cm I might get a different view to someone pilot sized.

Yes, your picture will be different to mine as I am 180 cm in height. Pilots have a different picture to other pilots . What I am trying to say is that if a pilot flys the same model aircraft and they keep the runway roughly under their wing or roughly in line with another part of the aircraft eg- wing strut. They will fly a more consistent circuit pattern.

 

 

[Nightmare]

I did a few Touch and Goes at YBAF the week before last. Unlike the Gold Coast, where ATC encourage you to make best speed, they dont do that at YBAF. So I was turning base and staring at another aircraft turning base on the other runway and freaking out, and the natural tendancy is to slow down and turn final early. Me freaking out and flying slow resulted in 2 other aircraft having to go around. I was the pain in the butt that day. I have overflown YBAF several times now, but never landed there, so it was all new to me. To top it off, I was already flying an extended downwind due to a proceeding aircraft. YBAF is busy!! Anyway, the result is that I am going to make a point of doing a touch and go every time I fly through Archerfield now, only to gain experience and confidence. I will stop when I am personally confident.

Which runways were you and the other guy using?

[Pearo]

Which runways were you and the other guy using?

I took my wife up for a fly one morning, as I was coming back into redcliffe the radio was silent.. I had the wind from the Southeast in the air, and when I overflew the wind was marginal on the ground so I opted to follow procedure and land on 07. I was on downwind 07 when another aircraft decided he wanted to use 25, but joined 07. I land, roll down to the last taxiway only to be greeted with skydiving caravan holding short of 25. I had to backtrack to the middle taxiway and subsequently forced number 2 in the circuit to go around. Number 2 in the circuit then turned back to land on 25.

 

Technically I was not wrong, there was no one in the circuit and local regs prefer 07 for noise abatement rules. It was southeast wind in the air, but on the ground it was a very mild westerly. I called it on 07, i was the first in the circuit and broadcast my joining, base and final.

 

 

[Nightmare]

I took my wife up for a fly one morning, as I was coming back into redcliffe the radio was silent.. I had the wind from the Southeast in the air, and when I overflew the wind was marginal on the ground so I opted to follow procedure and land on 07. I was on downwind 07 when another aircraft decided he wanted to use 25, but joined 07. I land, roll down to the last taxiway only to be greeted with skydiving caravan holding short of 25. I had to backtrack to the middle taxiway and subsequently forced number 2 in the circuit to go around. Number 2 in the circuit then turned back to land on 25.Technically I was not wrong, there was no one in the circuit and local regs prefer 07 for noise abatement rules. It was southeast wind in the air, but on the ground it was a very mild westerly. I called it on 07, i was the first in the circuit and broadcast my joining, base and final.

The wind can change so much at Redcliffe. I did 4 circuits, full stops, a few weeks ago, the first 2 the wind was blowing for 25, then it changed for the next 2 for 07

[ayavner]

Those skydiving rides use whatever the hell runway they feel like.

 

 

[Pearo]

The wind can change so much at Redcliffe. I did 4 circuits, full stops, a few weeks ago, the first 2 the wind was blowing for 25, then it changed for the next 2 for 07

I have been sailing since I was old enough to walk, so I am familiar with the local wind patterns on the surface. What you quickly realise when you start flying, is the wind patterns on the surface are very different to that in the air. In fact, since learning that, I have made a lot of observations on surface wind from the air which I have successfully taken to yacht racing!! The one thing I did know however, is that the surface winds generally start from the west in the early morning, and will follow the sun to the east. So early mornings at YRED will start out 25 and shift to 07. The time of year will effect this of course, depending on the length of day and the subsequent amount of latent land heat.

 

Here is a cool pic I took of different wind directions at surface v altitude. East wind on the surface (windsock), west wind at about 1000' (smoke). Its days like where you go to land on 25 only to be greeted with a tail wind on the surface. From the air you can often see this by looking at the point of a fire.

 

 

I have also taken photo's at sea of rain that shows wind shear and coriloas effect.

 

 

[ayavner]

I have also taken photo's at sea of rain that shows wind shear and coriloas effect.

I'd like to see those. Picture's worth 1000 words!

 

re: the above - I've had just that thing happen to me at Goulburn. Gets your attention in a hurry when that head/cross wind suddenly becomes a tailwind!

 

 

[Pearo]

I'd like to see those. Picture's worth 1000 words!re: the above - I've had just that thing happen to me at Goulburn. Gets your attention in a hurry when that head/cross wind suddenly becomes a tailwind!

I should not have said that!! As an amateur photographer I have hundreds of thousands of photos, both film and digital!! I was just luck that I knew where a copy of that last pic was. I will see what I can find!

 

Last week I was observing some awesome cloud conditions showing how local wind conditions are affected by moutains, I really wish I had taken photos. Also spotted some lenticular cloud just west of YRED yesterday, was out racing yachts so could not take a photo, but I have never seen that here before.. Sorry, weather nerd also.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Also spotted some lenticular cloud just west of YRED yesterday, was out racing yachts so could not take a photo, but I have never seen that here before.. Sorry, weather nerd also.

I'm no weather nerd, but I'm guessing that lenticular clouds are somehow related to snow? We've been experiencing some very cold weather lately, snow close to Warwick.

[ayavner]

I'm no weather nerd

you will be...

 

 

[coljones]

As my good friend Dazza said you should consider your sink rate and speed to pick your circuit. If you have a sink rate of 500fpm and a ground speed of 60kts then on down wind at 1000 feet you will last for 2 minutes, or 2 nautical miles and even less on climb out. So if the donk stops you never want the midpoint on the strip to be less than about 5 degrees (1000/12000*60) below you and for safety more while you work out what went wrong and set up for a glide approach. The end of downwind should be no more than 2 NM from the threshold or, better from the midpoint to give yourself some elbow room. So, maybe a mile is good, and as Dazza says burn into your brain a ref point on the wing or strut so that you stay close and safe.

 

One of the rules in GA is don't turn back under 700 feet so that should give you an idea where you crosswind leg should be.

 

But follow the advice of your instructor - they have either had more EFATOs or know about other EFATOs so that they have a real good feel of where a circuit should be.

 

An aside - the safe angle will apply at any height as the higher you are the further you can glide which is why it is wise to avoid scud runs because low level flying may put you below the safety angle to a good landing spot. If you are further out and not close to the strip the safe angle to a "potential" landing sight should be much steeper as you need to consider using up more time setting the plane up for an outlanding and then working out if you actually want to land in that nice, green, level, large cleared space that is full of crocodiles. Ouch.

 

Isn't maths fun