Fatal Aircraft Accident Deniliquin NSW

[facthunter]

Post replaced . How it got on that thread beats me. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Airline management would charge YOU for the flying if they could find a way to do it. They think you just sit there and press buttons. Nev

And you can bet the bean counters are working on that Nev.

 

 

[K-man]

I have found out who this poor soul was. He was a personal friend of a personal friend of mine. I have not met him but I know who he is, he was only 54 years of age. He is well respected in the motorsport field and was a very experienced GA pilot who flew his GA aircraft weekly between his very large rural holdings. Very sad, it is said it was his first flight in his new RAA registered Cub.A tragic outcome to what should have been years more of enjoyable flying.

I think this is what you might be referring to ...

http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/07/29/tcm-racer-bill-pye-killed-in-plane-crash/

 

Tragic.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Correct, I wasn't prepared to identify him until I knew his name was in the public domain.

 

 

[Guest asmol]

I can only guess if CAMS saw it fit to give him a month off following his accident in Darwin who is not to say doing low level mustering with 2 or 3 g's couldnt give him vertigo or something, just saying.

 

Sure he could probably drive a car on the road, but low level mustering with high g's is kind of different in my most basic and simplistic opinion.

 

This will be just another accident which will prevent my beloved from letting me go flying ! Just like the last 40 fatalities in the past 40 months, i fear we are doomed and i will need to take up a safe sport like scuba, rock fishing, quad bikes russian roulette etc.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I sympathize Asmol,

 

My wife keeps pointing out to me how many of the fatalities are guys my age with years of GA experience. She says to me "... another highly experienced pilot ... if he was that experienced how come he is dead ..." hard to answer.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Could you give a link to the CASA report that mentioned he was mustering Asmol?

 

Seems a bit weird to be mustering if it was his first flight in said machine? Good old Internet info is hard to decipher but CASA should be a half reasonable source.

 

 

[BLA82]

This will be just another accident which will prevent my beloved from letting me go flying !

Gees mate don't let them read the local news paper or watch the news. You will be rapped in bubble wrap, laying on the floor away from any buildings and 3000ft above sea level in no time.

 

What will be will be people, plenty of people play life to safe and either die of old age with regrets or be taken out crossing the road.

 

 

[facthunter]

Geez I'm starting to wonder. The rate of attrition just marches along steadily. Obviously it is too high but pinning the precise cause is not ever easy. In flight camera's would help a lot, but I'm not one to mandate much

 

Flying powered aircraft is just over 110 years old and the basics are the same as they always were. Nev

 

 

[K-man]

Geez I'm starting to wonder. The rate of attrition just marches along steadily. Obviously it is too high but pinning the precise cause is not ever easy. In flight camera's would help a lot, but I'm not one to mandate much. Nev

Mandatory 'black box'? Only an additional 20kg and everything's there.

(Please don't take me seriously.)

 

 

[dutchroll]

I have to wonder how much a person would get paid to jump through so many hoops.

The regulatory hoop-jumping is provided free of charge, as evidenced by the fact that when still more hoops are presented to jump through, the pay rate doesn't change! ;)

 

 

[cherk]

She says to me "... another highly experienced pilot ... if he was that experienced how come he is dead ..." hard to answer.

Unfortunately........The ULTIMATE experience .

 

 

[Teckair]

The regulatory hoop-jumping is provided free of charge, as evidenced by the fact that when still more hoops are presented to jump through, the pay rate doesn't change! ;)

Are airline pilots well paid?

 

 

[facthunter]

Some accumulated experience is the same experience over and over. You know this is happening when you are uncomfortable out of your rut.

 

Are Airline Pilots well paid ? At times SOME would have been.. The training costs were high. unless you came from the services. I would suggest about half the price of a suburban house. Co pilots on many feeder services get much less than Police start on. Plenty of jobs would pay a lot more. People do it because they like flying and have to do the fun flying on days off in a Stearman or something if they like engine noises and being broke. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Are airline pilots well paid?

In my company, yes. In some other companies, not particularly. It depends.

The salary range for a pilot employed doing RPT for an airline varies hugely from one company to another (and even from one aircraft type to another within the same company).

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

... who is not to say doing low level mustering with 2 or 3 g's couldnt give him vertigo or something, just saying..... ......but low level mustering with high g's is kind of .....

This is a popular misconception - mustering is a gentle exercise, if you're pulling Gs you don't know what you're doing, and neither do you know anything about the animals you're supposedly working.

 

This fella was an experienced sheep farmer so if he was actually working a flock he'd have been loitering some considerable distance behind them and quite high. The only low level mustering that takes place is when yarding up wild scrub cattle and that's done with choppers, you wouldn't stand a chance of containing them with a plane.

 

 

[kaz3g]

This is a popular misconception - mustering is a gentle exercise, if you're pulling Gs you don't know what you're doing, and neither do you know anything about the animals you're supposedly working.This fella was an experienced sheep farmer so if he was actually working a flock he'd have been loitering some considerable distance behind them and quite high. The only low level mustering that takes place is when yarding up wild scrub cattle and that's done with choppers, you wouldn't stand a chance of containing them with a plane.

Hi HITC

 

Not commenting on the particular tragic incident but we used fixed wings for all our mustering in the Gascoyne, and they still do.

 

Big properties with low stocking rates make a chopper a sure way to go broke. We used a C172 as did a number of our neighbours. Williambury used a Cub. John Rolsten used a PA28. The Gascoyne had been in drought for a decade when I bought Cobra in 1977 and prices were rock bottom. The cattle everywhere were wild scrubbers because no one could afford to muster when it cost more to truck them than they were worth. A number of places were vacant and the mickey bulls were huge and really fizzy.

 

We used the aeroplane to get them out of the river beds onto the flats where the little Suzuki 4WDs could settle them until the horsemen could take over. Any Bulls that wanted to fight were shot so they wouldn't break up the mob...gallop up beside them, shove the pistol muzzle in their ear, and...

 

Mt Augustus Station to the immediate east and North of us used Shorthorn Bulls and had several very nice white stud animals. They produced a lot of progeny of similar colour. I was mustering my place just to the south of them and the three Hammerquist brothers were helping (to make sure no "mistakes" we're made). In the mob was a lovely little white bull of around 1000 kilos who got very stroppy when given a prod with a bull bar and attacked young Kim on his motorbike. Don rounded him up with a Suzuki (minus roof and doors in deference to the heat and probably as a consequence of some prior inversion experience) and the little bull promptly turned on him and cantered straight through the front from the passenger side and out the driver's. The driver, all 17 stone of him, was not impressed.

 

Anyway, we finally got the mob into my bottom yards, sorted out the foreigners, and marked and branded the mickeys. When the road train arrived, old Meredith the driver had several goes at loading the bull but he jumped out of the race at the crush (which was a bit lower) and back into the ever-diminishing numbers waiting to load. Finally, Meredith got impatient and jumped up and down in the back gate of the crate. The bull saw him and charged. Meredith swung out the way and slammed the door on him. The last I saw of the bull he had his front legs hanging over the top rail and he was belling really loudly!

 

When the telegram arrived it had one animal dead on it.

 

Some months later Meredith was back and to.d us the story. When he unloaded at the Midland yards a young Elders fella in white mole skins and Akubra jumped in amongst the mob. The next thing Meredith saw was the little white bull pursuing the young fella up onto the walkway! And so they had to shoot it...bugger.

 

I saw recently where Rolsten had a Cub mustering goats in the Kennedy Ranges collide with a chopper. Shows how times change...goats were vermin back when I was there now they bring 3x as much as a Merino wether. My place was destocked and is now part of a large area of vacant Crown Land in the Upper Gascoyne. The Hammerquist boys have retired and Don's son is running MA. Baines have gone from Mt Clare and Yinnitharra. Minnie Creek changed hands a few times after Ian died. The Count never returned to take up the run he bought sight unseen from Europe after old Harry James chased him off with a .303 and I suppose the Sheik of Elliot Creek is playing a guitar in some pub somewhere. God they were wild times :-)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wanganella was the centre for some of Australia's best Merinos and we used to buy from the area. Flat open country so the "mustering" comment confuses me. It's certainly a different aircraft to what the guy has owned. A little early yet for any clear result. For all we know the previous pilot could have stressed the frame and this guy may have just been flying between properties.

 

 

[dutchroll]

My wife keeps pointing out to me how many of the fatalities are guys my age with years of GA experience. She says to me "... another highly experienced pilot ... if he was that experienced how come he is dead ..." hard to answer.

Yeah mine was nervous about flying in the Model 12 in the first place. After the recent accident, she won't go near it.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yeah mine was nervous about flying in the Model 12 in the first place. After the recent accident, she won't go near it.

You got it Dutchy, it was the Model 12 incident that generated her last response and then again with this one.

 

 

[dutchroll]

It's very hard to explain to your wife that you don't operate your plane like some other pilots operate theirs. Then you have to tell them why, and what it means. Then they ask "so why do they do that stuff or make those decisions and take those risks?" and you finally get to the point of saying "I have no idea".

 

Been through that conversational sequence a number of times.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's hard to get inside the head of other people. We are all the product of our own individual experiences. As no one knows what THEY don't know. it's difficult to assume what others have as a base level of knowledge, in any situation where you are dealing with people. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Not again ... what the hell is happening out there. What on earth are we doing so wrong that the penalties are so high?So damn tragic.

Not a comment directly on this accident.....but in many recently accidents an obvious and general loss of basic flying skills and good airmanship/ decision- making skills in my opinion.

GA or exGA pilots jumping into our level of aircraft still presents problems with converting to what are in most cases lower speed, lower inertia aircraft which require additional training and often additional skills. This particular problem has been with our sport for sometime now, and has contributed to many accidents and fatale in this country and others for some years. Many ex-GA pilots look at the change from GA to sport recreational a downgrade, however in many cases pilot skills need to be upgraded to fly lighter machines safety and efficiently.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Hi HITCNot commenting on the particular tragic incident but we used fixed wings for all our mustering in the Gascoyne, and they still do.

 

Big properties with low stocking rates make a chopper a sure way to go broke. We used a C172 as did a number of our neighbours. Williambury used a Cub. John Rolsten used a PA28. The Gascoyne had been in drought for a decade when I bought Cobra in 1977 and prices were rock bottom. The cattle everywhere were wild scrubbers because no one could afford to muster when it cost more to truck them than they were worth. A number of places were vacant and the mickey bulls were huge and really fizzy.

 

We used the aeroplane to get them out of the river beds onto the flats where the little Suzuki 4WDs could settle them until the horsemen could take over. Any Bulls that wanted to fight were shot so they wouldn't break up the mob...gallop up beside them, shove the pistol muzzle in their ear, and...

 

Mt Augustus Station to the immediate east and North of us used Shorthorn Bulls and had several very nice white stud animals. They produced a lot of progeny of similar colour. I was mustering my place just to the south of them and the three Hammerquist brothers were helping (to make sure no "mistakes" we're made). In the mob was a lovely little white bull of around 1000 kilos who got very stroppy when given a prod with a bull bar and attacked young Kim on his motorbike. Don rounded him up with a Suzuki (minus roof and doors in deference to the heat and probably as a consequence of some prior inversion experience) and the little bull promptly turned on him and cantered straight through the front from the passenger side and out the driver's. The driver, all 17 stone of him, was not impressed.

 

Anyway, we finally got the mob into my bottom yards, sorted out the foreigners, and marked and branded the mickeys. When the road train arrived, old Meredith the driver had several goes at loading the bull but he jumped out of the race at the crush (which was a bit lower) and back into the ever-diminishing numbers waiting to load. Finally, Meredith got impatient and jumped up and down in the back gate of the crate. The bull saw him and charged. Meredith swung out the way and slammed the door on him. The last I saw of the bull he had his front legs hanging over the top rail and he was belling really loudly!

 

When the telegram arrived it had one animal dead on it.

 

Some months later Meredith was back and to.d us the story. When he unloaded at the Midland yards a young Elders fella in white mole skins and Akubra jumped in amongst the mob. The next thing Meredith saw was the little white bull pursuing the young fella up onto the walkway! And so they had to shoot it...bugger.

 

I saw recently where Rolsten had a Cub mustering goats in the Kennedy Ranges collide with a chopper. Shows how times change...goats were vermin back when I was there now they bring 3x as much as a Merino wether. My place was destocked and is now part of a large area of vacant Crown Land in the Upper Gascoyne. The Hammerquist boys have retired and Don's son is running MA. Baines have gone from Mt Clare and Yinnitharra. Minnie Creek changed hands a few times after Ian died. The Count never returned to take up the run he bought sight unseen from Europe after old Harry James chased him off with a .303 and I suppose the Sheik of Elliot Creek is playing a guitar in some pub somewhere. God they were wild times :-)

Hi Kaz. Nice yarn, I bet you were a popular lass on the rails ...

 

Erm - I didn't say you couldn't muster wild cattle with a plane. I know you can, I flew a Super Cub as well as the choppers when I was in the Kimberley. What I said was "The only low level mustering that takes place is when yarding up wild scrub cattle and that's done with choppers, you wouldn't stand a chance of containing them with a plane" - and you confirm that in your description, that the plane might well get them out of the river bed onto the flat but then hand them over to buggies, bikes and/or horses to get them to the yard.

 

To save money on one rather forgettable muster in the East Kimberley, the rather inexperienced cocky asked me to use the Cub rather than the Robbie because the Cub was about 1/3 the hourly cost. Most of the cattle on that lease had only seen a yard once before and must've vowed never to re-visit the experience, so it was always going to be a challenge. They set up the portable yards pre-dawn and I started sweeping about ten miles upwind - for those not of the land, cattle are easier to move downwind because they can't smell or hear anything unusual ahead, and you can keep the aircraft further back, out of sight preferably, because the sound carries further to the mob.

 

They set up a mile of hessian wings (long lengths of hessian in a V shape that are supposed to funnel the cattle into the yard) and put themselves, the buggies and bikes into hiding a couple of hundred yards or so ahead of the yard gates. The mob was particularly recalcitrant that day and took much longer than usual to move up by which time the 'backpacker stockmen' (another so-called money-saver on stations run on a shoestring) had decided to boil the billy, have lunch and a snooze. Eventually the lead bullocks broke out of the bush a mile or so ahead of the rest and probably three miles ahead of the tail. They took one look at the green-hands, charged right through them scattering them to all four points, ran a lap of the yards and out again and never stopped. They were last seen still running with the rest of the mob dutifully following ... a total of six head for that day, all roped by the contract bull-catchers.

 

 

[turboplanner]

There are two ways to herd stock - move them or scare them. Once you scare them the adrenaline comes up and you are in the hands of the most skittish animal in the herd. That's when breakaways occur - in any direction, and that's when people pull helicopters and aircraft into excessively tight manouvres, with fairly regular and predictable results.

 

I've never checked ATSB to find the highest crash aircraft, but wouldn't be at all surprised to find it was the R22.

 

As far as using them for sheep, if we had any inkling that a ram supplier was doing that, he'd be an ex supplier - you walk sheep, you don't run them.

 

Thanks to the skills and teaching of my grandfather, I'm able to herd sheep without dogs, and in any country, which is why I'm a bit doubtful about this "mustering" comment. Not saying he wasn't doing it because although he owned a number of properties, I've seen a lot of big landholders doing very silly things with stock.