Fatal Aircraft Accident Deniliquin NSW

[Head in the clouds]

.... breakaways occur - in any direction, and that's when people pull helicopters and aircraft into excessively tight manouvres, with fairly regular and predictable results .....

The first time that happens an inexperienced mustering pilot might try that but it's very unlikely you'll contain them. The next time he/she will pull back a long way and let them settle before a second more gentle try. If they break again you pack up for the day and go and fix some fences or troughs instead. Muster a couple of other distant paddocks before giving that one another try. So much depends on the station, previous handling of the stock, treatment in the yards, whether the stock get walked back out again or the the gates are just opened and they're left to it.

 

I used to work one station just near Broome, the stock were known as commando cattle, they knew every trick and it was rare to get any in the yards at all, anything you got was usually roped from bull-catchers and all were sent straight off to the meatworks. Animal fatality rate was very high - 50% wasn't unusual.

 

By contrast another station not that far away had a cocky who used to get you to sweep way back for a couple of hours (this was in 100,000 acre paddocks) and start mobs moving, bring them together into one, but very loose, then drop him off the helicopter on the tail about 6-7 miles from the yards. He'd then send me off to do other work for the day and the next time I'd see him I'd fly afternoon smoko to the yards by which time he'd yarded the lot - sometimes 5,000 head - doing little more than walking quietly along behind, well back out of sight of any beast, tapping two sticks together. When I'd get there they'd be quiet and watered ready for drafting. That fella could've even taught Temple Grandin a thing or two I reckon, shame he was such a mongrel in every other way.

 

 

[turboplanner]

By contrast another station not that far away had a cocky who used to get you to sweep way back for a couple of hours (this was in 100,000 acre paddocks) and start mobs moving, bring them together into one, but very loose, then drop him off the helicopter on the tail about 6-7 miles from the yards. He'd then send me off to do other work for the day and the next time I'd see him I'd fly afternoon smoko to the yards by which time he'd yarded the lot - sometimes 5,000 head - doing little more than walking quietly along behind, well back out of sight of any beast, tapping two sticks together. When I'd get there they'd be quiet and watered ready for drafting. That fella could've even taught Temple Grandin a thing or two I reckon, shame he was such a mongrel in every other way.

This guy would probably get a Coles or Woolworths contract at 30% more than his neighbours, but they'd still be down the pub saying he'd grassed the buyer.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Not a comment directly on this accident.....but in many recently accidents an obvious and general loss of basic flying skills and good airmanship/ decision- making skills in my opinion.GA or exGA pilots jumping into our level of aircraft still presents problems with converting to what are in most cases lower speed, lower inertia aircraft which require additional training and often additional skills. This particular problem has been with our sport for sometime now, and has contributed to many accidents and fatale in this country and others for some years. Many ex-GA pilots look at the change from GA to sport recreational a downgrade, however in many cases pilot skills need to be upgraded to fly lighter machines safety and efficiently.

Agrre Ross, but the required upskilling is required when converting either way, it is not unique to GA pilots going to ultralight aircraft. A cub is hardly a typical ultralight it was GA long before ultralights even existed.

 

 

[Teckair]

Mustering sheep with a aircraft sounds weird to me.

 

 

[Guest asmol]

 

Sorry it took a while to find it again.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Mustering sheep with a aircraft sounds weird to me.

The boss used his C172 to muster sheep in the 60's, well not really mustering as some would imagine.

 

He was a spotter and radioed back to me on the Honda 125 the location of the mobs.

 

I mounted a horn from a twin spinner Ford (loud) on the bike. And got the various mobs moving to a fence line where the contract horse musterers were waiting.

 

This was in 25 sq mile mallee type scrub and Sandhill paddocks.

 

It cut the mustering time down from weeks to a couple of days per paddock.

 

seemed pretty safe to me.

 

PHIL

 

 

[David Isaac]

Asmol,

 

Pretty much confirms mustering. My info was that it was Bill's first flight in the aircraft. Either way he only just acquired the aircraft.

 

Whether he was endorsed or not for mustering is now a moot point. A terrible penalty to pay.

 

 

[Teckair]

The boss used his C172 to muster sheep in the 60's, well not really mustering as some would imagine.He was a spotter and radioed back to me on the Honda 125 the location of the mobs.

I mounted a horn from a twin spinner Ford (loud) on the bike. And got the various mobs moving to a fence line where the contract horse musterers were waiting.

 

This was in 25 sq mile mallee type scrub and Sandhill paddocks.

 

It cut the mustering time down from weeks to a couple of days per paddock.

 

seemed pretty safe to me.

 

PHIL

I have heard of spotting but that is not really mustering the way some do it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes the ATSB report confirms aerial mustering.

 

Interesting that ATSB is on the case as well as RAA.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Sad outcome Tubz. He was an experienced GA boy. I think he owned a Bonanza for his weekly commute.

 

 

[Guest asmol]

I asked the usual peps at the airport who knows the previous owner who is also an instructor.

 

The pilot had 3,500 plus hours, all reports were a very capable, experienced and safe pilot.

 

He didn't have a mustering (low level) endorsement and had less than 3 hours in the plane including his checkout.

 

There were witnesses on the ground assisting with the 'mustering' and reported he was 90 degrees bank, really slow and banked over all the way and dove straight in. Sorry to bring you the bad news.

 

Also if you look at the ATSB report it says they are only reporting, not investigating.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Classic low level stall and impact. Shouldn't be anywhere near 90 degrees at low level.

 

Classic gotcha that he would have been taught about in a low level endo.

 

It is very sad that he had to pay the ultimate penalty

 

 

[Teckair]

One common problem is the more flying you do the better you think you are.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think I described my conversion from GA to RA as "standing up in a canoe" - a major difference in skills required compared to a high speed cruising aircraft, the differences primarily being aeronautical knowledge rather than which lever to pull and push.

 

Interesting to know who his RA instructor was.

 

 

[exotic]

a combination of regulation saturation, and a shortage of decent training in advanced aircraft control from career orientated instructors.

He had many hours at the controls of his own Beechcraft Bonanza. He was a Pilot and a good safe one.

 

 

[David Isaac]

He had many hours at the controls of his own Beechcraft Bonanza. He was a Pilot and a good safe one.

Yes indeed he did and was. Tragically it appears his one fundamental mistake in the area he wasn't trained cost him his life.

Should be sobering for us older GA boys.

 

 

[facthunter]

The laws of physics applies to all equally, regardless of hours flown. A 90 degree bank requires infinite lift if it is balanced. You can't sustain a 90 degree bank. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

Very sad result..

 

I can't imagine how he would have thought such a extreme bank angle could result in anything else but disaster when close to the ground.

 

I guess we will never know.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

... I can't imagine how he would have thought such a extreme bank angle could result in anything else but disaster when close to the ground ....

It's a really easy trap to fall into when flying ground-related airwork. Extreme bank angles happen for several reasons, it can be wind drifting you over the target while manoeuvring or the mob moving under you, the tendency is to increase your bank angle to be able to keep your eye on the target. While you're watching the mob instead of the horizon, the high bank angle results in the nose dropping, by the time you look up and notice you think you have to reef back and consequently stall.

 

Correct recovery if as for a spiral dive - roll level before raising the nose.

 

Trying to communicate with ground crew by hand signals etc (i.e. without radios) is another trap that can have similar results.

 

Both of these scenarios are part of LL/mustering curricula.

 

The real issue is that there's rarely any need to fly low when mustering except when yarding cattle without ground support, and that's helicopter territory. That's why there's a mustering training course and endorsement ...

 

 

[kaz3g]

Seems it was young Roulston and he was locating for a cull rather than mustering according to the ATSB. Tragic loss of life and would hit hard in a very small community.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-010.asp

 

http://www.coronerscourt.wa.gov.au/_files/roulston_kean_finding.pdf

 

Kaz

 

 

[Litespeed]

Thanks Alan that makes some sense to me.

 

A very sad day.

 

 

[Ultralights]

You reckon reducing the number of regulations will improve the accident rate?Perhaps indeed there are too many regulations and don't for a minute think that I am advocating more (I am not). But consider this:

 

I fly for a major airline in my day job. We have the bejeezus regulated out of us. Honestly, if you wanted to know the hoops I have to jump through every year it would make you cry. On my company iPad there are 30 procedural, technical and regulatory publications (the longest of which is 2,200 pages and takes up nearly 80 MB of memory in a compressed PDF format) excluding CARs and CAOs which I am required to have an in-depth knowledge of. Yet our accident rate over several decades is almost zero. How then, is an accident rate linked to "regulation saturation"?

 

Seriously, you don't understand how lucky you are when it comes to freedom from regulation - it actually feels quite liberating for me to hop in my little Experimental plane on the weekend and go for a private fly. Yet still you fall out of the sky at somewhat alarming rates. Why?

 

He had many hours at the controls of his own Beechcraft Bonanza. He was a Pilot and a good safe one.

 

He didn't have a mustering (low level) endorsement and had less than 3 hours in the plane including his checkout.

I wasnt commenting on this accident in particular, but to clarify my idea of regulation saturation is, there are so many rules and regulations in regards to pretty much every aspect of flight, that most amateur pilots simply do not know them all, or find it impossible to know them all, i know all about the regulatory regime covering transport category aircraft, but pilots of those are doing it full time, its their job to know the regs and requirements, just as its my job as a maintainer of these aircraft, and military aircraft to know the rules and regs in regard to maintenance...(and there are far more than flight crews have to deal with)

 

but for weekend pilots, private pilots, who have other jobs, they simply dont have the time, the memory capacity, or are not in regular enough contact with regulations covering their flying to know everything, they are simply overwhelmed by it all, and go off and fly not knowing they might need endorsements or specific training in those areas of flight. or some just go, to hell with all the regs, and just continue on, not getting any refresher training like a BFR or similar training before trying something like mustering or formation work.

 

on the second one, Hours do not equate to experience... there is a good book by a Capt John Deakin,(full throttle) he was at one point, the worlds highest time B747 pilot, 30,000 hours alone on the Boeing 747, in the first paragraph, on the first page, he himself admits, he does not have 30,000 hours experience, he has 1 hours experience, 30,000 times.

 

just how would you expect a 30,000 hour pilot who has never had an aircraft at more than 30Deg AOB in those 30,000 hrs, to handle a 90Deg banked turn at low level and airspeed? I have seen it with my own eyes flying with an aerobatic school, high time airline pilots thinking they know it all, and then really struggling to come to terms with advanced manoeuvres, and take quite a long time to unlearn all the ingrained 2 dimensional flying.

 

and the last one.... you never stop learning when in aviation... a pilot that thinks they know it all is a dangerous pilot. and i get worried when pilots talk about their abilities and how advanced they think they are.

 

even myself, with 1000's of hours, experience with competition aerobatics, night flight, and soon to be twin time, still get nervous before a flight, especially when going for a fly to practice aerobatic manoeuvres, I have flown my savannah for 1000 hours, and havnt flown it now for 12 months, i dont plan on getting back into it now without a few hours with an instructor.. and a refresher on advanced control and stalling and spinning recovery.

 

What we need is regulation that is easier to understand, and comply with, and to ingrain the notion of you can never get enough training.

 

 

[gandalph]

...gallop up beside them, shove the pistol muzzle in their ear, and...

Note to self: Remember to be very very polite to Kaz in all future correspondence.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hi Kaz. Nice yarn, I bet you were a popular lass on the rails ... [ATTACH=full]37116[/ATTACH]Erm - I didn't say you couldn't muster wild cattle with a plane. I know you can, I flew a Super Cub as well as the choppers when I was in the Kimberley. What I said was "The only low level mustering that takes place is when yarding up wild scrub cattle and that's done with choppers, you wouldn't stand a chance of containing them with a plane" - and you confirm that in your description, that the plane might well get them out of the river bed onto the flat but then hand them over to buggies, bikes and/or horses to get them to the yard..

Hi HITC

 

Popularity depended on how well the unbranded calves were mothered up before I put my brand on

 

any of them .

 

I had some good Aboriginal stockmen who were indispensable really...their knowledge of the country was amazing and they loved the work. They taught me a heck of a lot about navigating by sun and stars, how to find water, what foods were safe to eat. I also learned a lot about their culture including taboos and moieties. This is semi-arid country with 8" rainfall. A lot of it is ironstone and Quartz gibber flats with ironstone jump ups. It's bloody hot in summer (getting to the mid-50s by day and dropping to high 30s overnight in summer but lovely between April and October.

 

Some of our work was very low indeed because we would fly down the dry river bed below the tree tops to push the old stagers out. Some of them were extremely cagey and they would lie down and refuse to move...you either left them behind or lost the mob. As they were usually huge bullocks, this really hurt! But once we had them in a workable mob we kept the plane and motorbikes well away so we could get them quiet for the horsemen.

 

There were no phones or commercial radio or TV...just the "pedal" which was actually a SSB HF with a range of over 1000 miles. It was 22 miles to the nearest neighbour heading west and 60 miles to MA homestead. And it was 80 miles to the back gate by road! But I knew neighbour's 500 miles away better then than I know any of the people in the houses either side of me now...I never met many of them but we were brought close together by the isolation and the daily skeds on the radio. I didn't wear a skirt or makeup then!

 

Kaz

 

 

[dutchroll]

...but for weekend pilots, private pilots, who have other jobs, they simply dont have the time, the memory capacity, or are not in regular enough contact with regulations covering their flying to know everything, they are simply overwhelmed by it all, and go off and fly not knowing they might need endorsements or specific training in those areas of flight. or some just go, to hell with all the regs, and just continue on, not getting any refresher training like a BFR or similar training before trying something like mustering or formation work.

Any flying <500ft, aerobatics, formation, spinning. These things have always required specific training and endorsement. There are another 4 rec pilot endorsements - that's 8 total. I would not call that overwhelming. I need to remember more things than that to start my tractor!