Judging the flare

[Nightmare]

I've started circuit training and all is going well, but I seem to suffer from the thing that a lot of student pilots suffer from, judging when to flare, but I'm flaring too high, I just can't seem to get my head around it yet. I've booked in for extra practice. Any tips or advice?

 

Tony

 

 

[facthunter]

Every flare is potentially different, depending on your surplus speed, height of flare, gusts, and other factors

 

Flaring too high makes it a longer time you must "manage" the flare period and runs a risk you may get slower than desired, a bit too high off the ground

 

Information on varying techniques is limited on a site such as this. Everyone has a different technique to give credit to for their success. Remembering the way the plane looks height wise when you are on the ground may help a little, but I would keep it between your instructor and you or you may end up worse off at the early stages, where you are aiming at consistent and controlled arrivals rather than squeekers. Nev

 

 

[Nightmare]

I've got about 20 not so great landings behind me now, but that judgement when to begin the round out seems to elude me, I guess it will come in time, more practice is the key I'm guessing....

 

 

[facthunter]

Big part of it, but be prepared to put in a put in bit of extra effort rather than just expect it to be like the last one. If you start the flare high make it less until you get it where you like it.. Basically it's safer not to flare too high , particularly in a crosswind, and make it a bit lower and more positive. If you do it too high and too much you will balloon and too late and or slow , you will drive it into the ground. The correct airspeed has a big effect on this. You must be able to control it accurately, but you can't be watching the airspeed indicator at the exact time you are landing it as you are getting very necessary "cues" from looking outside. Nev

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

I've got about 20 not so great landings behind me now, but that judgement when to begin the round out seems to elude me, I guess it will come in time, more practice is the key I'm guessing....

On late final approach, at about 20-30ft off the ground are you remembering to transfer your gaze from the aiming point to the far end of the runway? Once you're looking down the runway you will judge your height far better. Then it's a matter of allowing the plane to fly slower and slower (because the power is off) while keeping it close to the ground and not doing anything to actually land, just keep holding it off as it tries to settle, eventually the stick will be well back and the plane so slow it can't keep in the air anymore so it will land.

 

Avoid jiggling the stick around too much, most people try to correct every minute movement of the aircraft during the round-out, don't worry about the small movements, just correct the large ones - my students used to find it easier to forget about any deliberate kind of 'flare' and just think of it as a round-out, in other words trying to prevent the aircraft from landing, rather than you doing anything specific to land it - just hold it off the ground as it slows down and it will land itself.

 

 

[ayavner]

for the purpose of the discussion, i'll share what helped me, though as you pointed out - practice, practice, practice.

 

For me, i think it helped once I had done the lessons on slow flight - controlling the aeroplane at lower speeds with confidence, after all this is what you are doing whilst landing. In slow flight lessons, descending from one altitude to another will help you get the roundout right - get straight and level just in time to be at the correct height.. that's the roundout (just imagine you are over the runway). the flare comes as you feel the sink and try to trade remaining airspeed for height, pulling back gradually until there is no more to trade and you touch down.

 

of course you will incorporate all the visual cues, but as far as getting the feel for it - pay attention to those slow flight lessons.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I'm a plus one to Head ITC comment on making sure you are looking at the other end of the runway. Height perception if looking at your aiming point can be way off but when you are looking down the runway you can judge it much better.

 

I had the same hassles and I never really got used to it until the instructor wasn't in the front seat! I learnt in a j3 and pic sits in the back seat, even when solo, and my instructor was as big as me so it was difficult but once flying solo and being able to look down the runway my landings improved out of sight.

 

 

[ayavner]

 

I've used this technique at unfamiliar runways and it helps, along with looking at the far end as others have said. The effect (expansion at a specific point) is the same regardless of runway width.

 

 

[Nightmare]

are you remembering to transfer your gaze from the aiming point to the far end of the runway? Once you're looking down the runway you will judge your height far better. Then it's a matter of allowing the plane to fly slower and slower (because the power is off) while keeping it close to the ground and not doing anything to actually land, just keep holding it off as it tries to settle, eventually the stick will be well back and the plane so slow it can't keep in the air anymore so it will land.Avoid jiggling the stick around too much, most people try to correct every minute movement of the aircraft during the round-out, don't worry about the small movements, just correct the large ones - my students used to find it easier to forget about any deliberate kind of 'flare' and just think of it as a round-out, in other words trying to prevent the aircraft from landing, rather than you doing anything specific to land it - just hold it off the ground as it slows down and it will land itself.

I'm rounding out a bit high, and have a tendency to balloon, I guess I might be starting the roundout looking at the aiming point but finishing looking down the far end, could that be my problem? The visual cues I haven't quite mastered yet.

Yes, I tend to be jiggling the stick around a bit, and therefore over correcting too much, my instructor pointed that one out to me too.

 

I'm booked in for another lesson toomorrow

 

 

[Nightmare]

 

Good video, I'll see how I go toomorrow, I think this method will definitely help.Tony

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If you know you are flaring high, the cure is just a case of flaring a bit lower, the upside is that your flying is consistent. So you are making progress.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Your instructor would be the first point of call to ask this question. We all learn differently and your instructor should be able to provide you with several different methods of judging flare height and how to complete the hold off. I won't let my students attempt a landing until they can fly a tidy circuit and approach and judge the flare and hold off. I do this by having them complete the circuit down to the flare and hold off, initially with me managing the power into the flare and prompting "a bit higher or a bit lower" without intending a touch down. The run along the runway then finishes with a go around, if you can successfully fly this sequence the actual touchdown is easy. I brief that any unexpected touchdown / bounce leads to a go around and I deal with bounce recovery later on. You then just need to manage the rollout, which effectively is high to low speed taxiing. Like any learning, it's broken down into building blocks and not one huge sequence of events which students can find overwhelming. I think some instructors forget what those early stages of flight training are like as a student.

 

Good luck, you'll find it will all click and wonder why you found this stage difficult.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Your instructor would be the first point of call to ask this question. We all learn differently and your instructor should be able to provide you with several different methods of judging flare height and how to complete the hold off. I won't let my students attempt a landing until they can fly a tidy circuit and approach and judge the flare and hold off. I do this by having them complete the circuit down to the flare and hold off, initially with me managing the power into the flare and prompting "a bit higher or a bit lower" without intending a touch down. The run along the runway then finishes with a go around, if you can successfully fly this sequence the actual touchdown is easy. I brief that any unexpected touchdown / bounce leads to a go around and I deal with bounce recovery later on. You then just need to manage the rollout, which effectively is high to low speed taxiing. Like any learning, it's broken down into building blocks and not one huge sequence of events which students can find overwhelming. I think some instructors forget what those early stages of flight training are like as a student.Good luck, you'll find it will all click and wonder why you found this stage difficult.

According to my instructor, I'm flying a good consistent circuit from takeoff to approach, at the round-out, I'm not judging it correctly flaring too high, then over-correcting the controls just after at the hold off, I sometimes have the tendency to balloon. In my head, I know I'm doing these things, but it's frustrating getting it from there into practice.... I think that's all I need... practice, practice, practice. So far I have done 3 one hour long sessions doing circuits, tomorrow will be the 4th, so hopefully it'll all come together nicely. Tony

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Sounds like you're making good progress. Don't let the flare distract you from the rest of the circuit, like I said it will all click into place and you'll wonder why you were worrying.

 

I use the following work cycle commencing on base and continuing on approach:

 

LARF

 

L = Line-up

 

A = Airspeed

 

R = Relax! (Physically, not mentally. It helps you check to see the aircraft's in trim and reduces your tendency to over control)

 

F = Flight path - hi/lo? and over or under shooting?

 

Good luck with your next session!

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I've got about 20 not so great landings behind me now, but that judgement when to begin the round out seems to elude me, I guess it will come in time, more practice is the key I'm guessing....

20 Not-so-great-landings eh? Most of us have been there, done that also. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just stick with it and don't worry that it isn't working yet. You've only just started flying and it WILL come with practice, I promise you.

From my experience and from a lot of others I've spoken to, it seems to just click one day. It takes varying amounts of time for everyone, but if you give up it will never happen. NEVER GIVE UP. I have a personal friend who had 50 hours under instruction and still got ground rush and did what you're doing, flare too high and often bounce it. He persisted and now he's a flying instructor, with multiple hundreds of hours in his log. Did I mention NEVER GIVE UP?

 

If you REALLY get to the point where you think it is taking far too long, ask to fly with another instructor. When I was learning to fly, I had two instructors. One taught me how to fly, the other taught me how to land. A different approach to landings from another instructor can sometimes be the magic bullet solution.

 

Best of luck with it and did I mention NEVER GIVE UP?

 

 

[Nightmare]

20 Not-so-great-landings eh? Most of us have been there, done that also. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just stick with it and don't worry that it isn't working yet. You've only just started flying and it WILL come with practice, I promise you.From my experience and from a lot of others I've spoken to, it seems to just click one day. It takes varying amounts of time for everyone, but if you give up it will never happen. NEVER GIVE UP. I have a personal friend who had 50 hours under instruction and still got ground rush and did what you're doing, flare too high and often bounce it. He persisted and now he's a flying instructor, with multiple hundreds of hours in his log. Did I mention NEVER GIVE UP?

 

If you REALLY get to the point where you think it is taking far too long, ask to fly with another instructor. When I was learning to fly, I had two instructors. One taught me how to fly, the other taught me how to land. A different approach to landings from another instructor can sometimes be the magic bullet solution.

 

Best of luck with it and did I mention NEVER GIVE UP?

So I'm guessing the secret message here could be "NEVER GIVE UP" is it?OK you win.... flying is much to awesome, quitting is never an option for me...... I'd even accept several hundred landings til I get it, don't worry, I have the flying bug now and I'm on course to get my flying certificate. I was just probing (that sounds painful ) to see if I've missed something, tapping in to the valuable wealth of information from the veterans of the skys who have learned a thing of two like yourself. By the way, I've just completed 8 hours, which included 3 hours of circuit training, another session tomorrow

 

 

[Nightmare]

I went up for some more circuits today, I think I finally nailed it. 3 out of the 4 round outs and landings were spot on! The other one, the first landing of the day, I pulled just a little too much back on the stick on the flare, landed a little heavy, but it was still OK.

 

Not real sure why everything just fell into place today. Maybe, I never gave up, I watched a video, I LARFed a bit... all your advice helped, thank you everyone..... next session is next week, so hope I can keep it consistent, and put in a few more excellent landings. Cheers!

 

 

[facthunter]

ALL your more successful flight's will end up with a landing so you will get a lot of practice as time goes by. Some people have an occasional relapses too during their career. Doing it prescriptively isn't the full answer though. It may get you a fair way down the road, that way, but "fly" the plane right through the landing. Put the EFFORT in . ALL landings are not the same. Conditions may vary and you will fly different aircraft. You only do the landing for a short time at the end of the flight, so you are going to have to do a lot of circuits to get a lot of landing experience. After about 4 at any one time, you might not get a lot of improvement, depending on your circuit times, in the early stages, so do something else or get on the ground for a while and do some later. After about 50 minutes of concentration you are not going to do your best or get value for your flying dollar. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I find I do poor landings after a long flight. Just seem to be a bit tired and stuff up the judgment.

 

Best advice is to keep it off the ground for as long as you can, just try to fly low and slow. I have always enjoyed flying slow, which of course is relative to the plane you are flying, but I have been able to fly the Corby alongside a drifter and the RV4 alongside a Savannah. Slow flight at a safe height is in my opinion good training for all parts of the circuit.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Good work and as Nev says, you'll have good days and not so good days. Remember to go around if you feel uncomfortable with an approach or landing, don't wait for the instructor to prompt you. In your early days, you're better off going around rather than trying too hard to correct a large balloon or big bounce.

 

A little exercise for you to help develop your thought processes regarding energy management during approach:

 

Draw a 3x3 grid (like noughts and crosses)

 

Across the top label the columns with airspeed as:

 

Slow, ok, fast.

 

Down the left side label the rows with your approach profile as:

 

High, ok, low

 

Now write in each box of the grid your actions.

 

eg the centre row, third column will represent profile ok, but airspeed fast. I would reduce power and maintain profile until airspeed is ok, then reset the correct power. If you follow the simplistic teaching of elevator controls airspeed and power controls flight path you'd raise the nose to fix the fast airspeed, but now you're high on profile so you'd reduce power - pretty dumb I think.

 

You need to assess your energy state (combination of speed and height) before making corrections and remember power + attitude = performance. So unless you're in a glider or had an engine failure you've got two factors affecting performance.

 

In all cases for low experience pilots I recommend high+fast=go-around and low+slow=go around.

 

I hope this helps and does not cause confusion, it's much easier explained on a white board!

 

Keep up the great work!

 

 

[Nightmare]

I find I do poor landings after a long flight. Just seem to be a bit tired and stuff up the judgment.Best advice is to keep it off the ground for as long as you can, just try to fly low and slow. I have always enjoyed flying slow, which of course is relative to the plane you are flying, but I have been able to fly the Corby alongside a drifter and the RV4 alongside a Savannah. Slow flight at a safe height is in my opinion good training for all parts of the circuit.

I totally agree, slow flight was a very large part of my success today, but also, I had a tendency to over correct a lot. I found that making small corrections when needed, not correcting every gust that hit the plane helped keep it stable..... now I just have to keep it consistent.

[facthunter]

The concept of energy surplus or deficit is worth while. Your engine power is another control. You must get to there at some stage of your learning.. If you are consistently flaring at a too high position, just delay doing anything a bit longer . Allow the plane to get closer before commencing any flare. Speed control is of the essence. Height judgement depends on a lot of things. (Shape of landing area Width of runway slope up or down. and people landing on grass , on the appearance of it's texture, as an example) Mirror finish water presents some difficulty as a contrast with grass. Nev

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I totally agree, slow flight was a very large part of my success today, but also, I had a tendency to over correct a lot. I found that making small corrections when needed, not correcting every gust that hit the plane helped keep it stable..... now I just have to keep it consistent.

Just be fair on yourself. Nobody greases EVERY landing. Try to do your best, but forgive yourself for the flubs. As someone else said, every landing is different. If you try to formularise the landing process, some will be good and a lot will be bad. Feel what the plane is doing and respond to it. You'll get better with experience.

 

 

[ayavner]

think about how great you were as a teenage driver merging into traffic or parallel parking... do you think you might be even better now after doing it a few thousand times? We can't reasonably expect landing an aeroplane to be any different. That should take a bit of the performance anxiety off :-) It will get better as your muscle memory and judgement incorporate more and more experience.

 

 

[facthunter]

Flying has a distinct difference from driving or riding The air you are in "moves" and only supports you if you treat it right. No matter how big or small the plane is, it's not running on a surface or on rails, when it's in the air. Nev