General Hypothetical Question - CAUGHT OUT - X WIND Landing

[SSCBD]

How many flying RAA pilots are “REALLY COMFORTABLE” in landing in a strong X WINDS.

 

To be specific let’s say 20 knots X wind (90 DEGREES TO A NARROW RUNWAY) with gusts.

 

Yes you have been caught out and with “no other option” but this option – ok !

 

Also let’s not get into different aircraft classes, tail-wheel, high wing, low wing etc. - but purely your pilot skill level today.

 

Are you, in your aircraft feeling -

 

1. No increase in heart rate fully confident.

 

2. Increase in heart rate and attention but should be OK.

 

3. Taking deep breaths and thinking I should have done more x-wind practice this is going to be hairy.

 

4. Very worried, stressing, this is not going to end well. Wish I had a CFI or better with me to take over.

 

5. Wish I had a parachute , can’t do it.

 

Also

 

When was the last time you made yourself practice x wind landings.?

 

 

[turboplanner]

What about POH max crosswind component?

 

 

[SSCBD]

What about POH max crosswind component?

Please read post again carefully - the POH is out the window. ------ "Yes you have been caught out and with “no other option” but this option – ok"

 

 

[poteroo]

What about POH max crosswind component?

If I recall, we discussed this POH 'maximum' before. It depends on the wording - generally it says 'maximum demonstrated crosswind component. That isn't necessarily the upper limit - simply what the test pilot did on the day of testing. Companies don't set out to create a high cross wind limit for their POH - rather, they tend to be conservative. However, if you have not maintained your skills since either your PC test, or the last BFR/training session - then you are going to have to adopt other tactics. A diversion to another strip? Land diagonally on the runway to minimise the crosswind component? Use less flap and land slightly faster? Several possibilities but nothing beats prior practice. Dare I mention the old P-P-P-P-P-P acronym?

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

There is usually another option to landing with 20 knots at right angles to a narrow strip. If you planned and had weather info, you would carry divert fuel. It's a requirement. Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

There is usually another option to landing with 20 knots at right angles to a narrow strip. If you planned and had weather info, you would carry divert fuel. It's a requirement. Nev

You are missing the spirit of the question and any answer

 

 

[Pearo]

I did some great crosswind work in San Francisco, think 30+ knots gusting. I have never experienced anything quite like that before. I was scared of sub 10 knots crosswind before. Crosswinds don't scare me anymore

 

 

[Ultralights]

i am pretty confident i could get my savannah down with a 20Kt crosswind, done it many times before. or if it gets to strong, land across the runway with winds above 25 kts.

 

but if i was in another aircraft, then the term "Precautionary Search and Landing" would be at the forefront of my mind.. find a dirt road, or something else into wind thats safe to land on...

 

anyone remember the Prec search and landing? or the reasons you should have learnt how to do it?

 

 

[facthunter]

I wrote it before I saw any other reply. So you want to put it into the "whatif" category that good pilots wouldn't get them selves into? Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

There is a lot of variables still but no harm in humouring you:wink:

 

I'll admit I don't practice crosswind takeoffs or landings enough. Having said that I have been caught by strong gusting winds that were NOT forecast (always expect worse than is forecast!) and still felt safe albeit a bit uncomfortable. But having said that in those times I had the luxury of wide open ploughed paddocks so I could land straight into wind.

 

I can't speak for other aircraft types but I know in the hornet if there is a decent crosswind I land with no flaps and keep the speed well up and on latish finals it is very obvious whether (is that the right one one dazza?) I have enough rudder authority or not. If not enough rudder authority I could land faster (within reason obviously) or preferably land across the strip or in a paddock not too far away.

 

Remembering of course that a 25 knot gusting wind is NOT to be taken lightly if biggish trees line the runway.

 

So my short answer is I am confident that I could tell if it was in my comfort zone or not and if not then as ultralights said elsewhere it is:thumb up:

 

IMHO one benefit for me flying a stol plane (even though more affected by gusts) is the fact that paddocks are not scary and it opens up so many more options for 'out landings'

 

 

[facthunter]

Be able to tell during the approach if you are reaching your limits or the aircrafts. Learn to land on one mainwheel and if not in recent experience on the type do a slipping approach.( wing down into wing) at a higher than normal speed with less flap than usual. Use plenty of bank and see whether you are running out of rudder or can't maintain the centre line. Be prepared to go around if you are not maintaining control to where you are comfortable. If it's tricycle U/C don't allow the nosewheel to take any aircraft weight till the speed is reduced. ( is that the sort of thing you are after?) Nev

 

 

[K-man]

Not a situation I relish. We had a cross wind like that at Tooradin a week back and after one half hearted attempt at 22 I changed to the short dirt strip into wind. No point in proving a point and maybe damaging the aircraft. As to training for them, yes, I have flown in a cross wind intentionally to get some practice. From my perspective in a strong crosswind crabbing and straightening as you touch down is not an option, especially on a bitumen strip. I prefer coming in straight with the wing down into the wind, flap-less and extra speed to aid the landing and, for me, the wind needs to be from the right, even if that means a slight tail wind component.

 

However, this is hypothetical answer. If I have done my flight planning properly I won't be in the situation where I have to raise my stress levels.

 

 

[kaz3g]

You are missing the spirit of the question and any answer

I am missing it too because 20 KN at 90 degrees is more than twice my XW max. I would either find somewhere else ( any old paddock will do) or land across the strip if it's reasonably wide.

 

That said I know Jack Ellis and Harry Baker both landed Austers in x-winds of near 30 knots but I am not them and I know my limitations. Thirty years ago I might have tried...but I was younger and sharper then, some might say sillier too.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Downunder]

A 20 knot crosswind gives me a good tailwind to an alternate.

 

Might not be in the spirit of the question but it's definately the spirit of my answer.....

 

 

[dazza 38]

No problem

 

 

[rankamateur]

i am pretty confident i could get my savannah down with a 20Kt crosswind, done it many times before. or if it gets to strong, land across the runway with winds above 25 kts.

There is a short video on aerokits.net.au website home page of the VG landing across my strip with 5 kts of headwind, 18 m landing roll. Savannah VG is a very special case, S/XL models are not quite so capable.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Practice enough and you'll never fear crosswinds.

 

When I/we were instructing quite a high proportion of our time was spent teaching the student to run up and down the airstrip on one wheel. We didn't let a student solo until they could quickly change from one wheel to the other without deviating from track and in moderate conditions.

 

To conduct this exercise and be completely comfortable with it means that you have developed the ability to fly/operate with crossed controls and adjust the amount of each to maintain directional control of the aircraft for extended periods of time, not just a quick jab on the rudder to kick it straight on touchdown. Once you can do that you are quickly able to recognise when you're running out of control authority, so you can determine when a crosswind is above your, or the aircraft's, capability. With practice a good flyer can usually exceed the numbers provided in the POH by a significant amount, and if the crosswind is so strong that you can't, you can usually land diagonally across the strip, as others mentioned.

 

There's much more to it than just running along the runway at stable speed and power and switching from one wheel to the other. Each time you change wheels gyroscopic precession provides a bit of influence which de-stabilises the exercise just enough to make you have to adjust for it, and the GP acts in a different direction as you change from left to right, compared with right to left.

 

Any power change also affects things by changing the torque reaction and also by increasing/decreasing the control authority of the tailfeathers.

 

Conducting the exercise at slower or faster speeds provides differences too (the amount of aileron drag for instance) and doing it tail-up or tail-down is another variant because it brings P factor into play. Until the student is fully conversant with being able to do this exercise in all its variants and understand why the different factors affect the plane in the various different ways, IMHO they're not ready to start playing with crosswinds. Once they have reached that stage then they usually find crosswinds to be a walk in the park.

 

It's also good to know what other tricks you might have up your sleeve to pull out in the event that things get unexpectedly untidy. At Kooralbyn the (East/West) runway goes through a cutting about halfway down, and has high mountains on the northern side. A northerly wind can produce some very exciting moments at the cutting and is a good opportunity to learn the benefits of a quick burst of power, how it provides instant rudder authority, how the torque is very beneficial in one direction and can be quite inconvenient the other way, how lowering the tail to benefit from P factor can save the day. Even the deliberate use of gyroscopic precession to provide a very powerful yaw input - is everyone aware that giving the engine a rev and then lowering or raising the tail will make the plane yaw strongly to one side or the other? You need to know instinctively which way it acts or you may be bringing yourself undone inadvertently. And the wonders of differential brakes, should you happen to have them.

 

Dazza was one of our Kooralbyn students and hence his remark, he took to unco-ordinated controlling like a duck does to water. This form of cross-control training used to be commonplace in quite a few of the schools in Qld that I knew of in the 1980s but doesn't appear to be the norm anymore.

 

As I've seen it since there are three reasons why most students don't seem to receive this type of training anymore. The first is that during all of my BFRs in recent years I haven't come across an instructor that can, or is willing, to do, or even try, it. The second reason is that it means that planes spend extended time making noise on the airstrip while running up and down and many airstrips are either too busy or have noise sensitivity issues, so instructional flights are required to get up and go away to the training areas. A third reason is that students themselves often resent time spent on the ground and want to get flying rather than training for ground management, and instructors are probably a bit too ready to appease them.

 

 

[dutchroll]

How many flying RAA pilots are “REALLY COMFORTABLE” in landing in a strong X WINDS.

The day I get "really comfortable" landing in strong (ie, at or near aircraft limits) crosswinds I will retire from flying.

Sure, I can do them. 40 knots crosswind in a big plane, yep. 20 knots in my small plane, yep.

 

But they're never "comfortable", they are always hard work, and always require an intense amount of concentration. If I were to do it without any increase in heart rate, I would suggest that I have become over-confident and will likely suffer a concentration lapse one day which could prove costly.

 

Your highest level of performance is always when you are under a moderate degree of stress. Moderate, being the operative word. Not excessive, or performance levels drop dramatically. Conversely, if you're not stressed at all, your performance level is actually low. So while you should be trained to the point of being confident that you are capable of that crosswind landing, you should never get to the stage where you think "this is just a breeze".

 

As far as exceeding the crosswind limitations in the POH, well the limitations are there for a reason. They're not decorative garnish. They are actually real numbers which, although factored by a certain margin, depict the controllability limitations of the aircraft which have usually been determined under flight test conditions. In the certified world at least, that is done by full time professional test pilots.

 

 

[Camel]

HITC, very true all you have said, I have experienced high crosswind and my training has helped me deal with it and had no problem. I believe if trained in crosswind to the aircrafts demonstrated ability then you could deal with a lot worse. My first big crosswind was 20 knots straight across in a C172, it was not as bad as I thought and was proud of my self, the next was not expected and ended up in Broken Hill with a big wind between both strips, it was over 50 knots, the landing was exciting to say the least but safe and smoother than I imagined, getting the plane to the tie down was another story. I have also landed a J230 in 20knots direct crosswind without problem.

 

If you do the training, you will use skill and not panic, I have seen many pilots who I fear will come to grief if they get caught in a big crosswind because I see they can't even land a plane straight on a good day.

 

I recently done a BFR and it was a 15 knot crosswind and it was a good experience especially in a plane I have never flown before.

 

 

[ayavner]

in the spirit of the question, i'd put myself around #2. Not to say I always get them perfect, but i haven't hurt myself or the plane yet. What I do fear is the sudden changes from headwind to tailwind at the moment of roundout... good time for a go-around, but if it catches you out it can be percussive...

 

 

[facthunter]

Train thoroughly and fly with a great deal of attention and effort no matter how experienced you are.

 

"Really comfortable"?? I have to agree with Dutchroll, especially with gusts as the situation was defined, I'm not sure being comfortable is appropriate . Being competent and having justified confidence that the situation is within your limits has to be a requirement. Giving it you fullest attention is required and be prepared to give the landing away and go round is a constant possibility.

 

When you are landed it's not over either. You might not be able to keep it straight as the speed drops off, particularly with a Tailwheel plane but the swing will be at low speed and do no damage if you anticipated it correctly. It might even look as if you intended to do it. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

in the spirit of the question, i'd put myself around #2. Not to say I always get them perfect, but i haven't hurt myself or the plane yet. What I do fear is the sudden changes from headwind to tailwind at the moment of roundout... good time for a go-around, but if it catches you out it can be percussive...

Same the other way too. Overshoot shear has caused many problems late in the landing. A sudden increase in headwind and now you find yourself floating down the runway with the power at idle, being unable to put it down, the far end rapidly looming.

Either way is cause for a go-around.

 

 

[BlurE]

Ok, I'll 'fess-up.

 

I had an occasion 18 months ago as a newly certificated pilot where I struggled to get down.

 

Others has been up flying, and I had assessed the wind strength at about 20kn and no worse that I had experienced before. So I went off for a nice local flight. I didn't have a lot of time in this particular hire-plane and was looking forward building some confidence.

 

30 minutes later rejoined the circuit, the wind sock was horizontal between the two runways so either way it was 45 degrees. So I chose the longer runway.

 

On final set the aircraft with right wing low and a big boot full of left rudder. It was gusty and turbulent and I fought all the way down to maintain centre-line. Then at the moment I flared the runway shot off past the right wing. Went round.

 

Tried again this time put the RH wheel down for a moment but I was drifting significantly off the the left. Power up went round.

 

Tried a third time, and a fourth time. Starting to feel some pressure now and really concentrating, everything good until the flare and again the runway moved right. Dammed runway.

 

Now mild panic is starting to set in. I had full tanks so hours of endurance, but I really had an appreciation of that saying about being up or down wishing for the other.

 

At this point according to the original post I am at "4. Very worried, stressing, this is not going to end well. Wish I had a CFI or better with me to take over."

 

So yes, a 30hr pilot, 5 of which in this aircraft, with a 12-15kn gusting crosswind component. It was clear at that moment that the skill required exceeded what I had available. I was dreading the embarrassment of diverting but I wasn't about to bend this lovely new plane either. I took a moment to consider my options and took a good long look at the windsock wishing for something different, and by now it had swung around almost (at least closer) in line with the shorter cross-runway. Which explains some of my difficulty, but also presented an opportunity.

 

I changed to circuit the shorter runway and nailed a very nice landing first attempt. It was still a crosswind but nothing like what I had been fighting for the last 20 minutes.

 

Oh the relief I felt at that moment when I turned off the runway.

 

Lessons learnt.

 

Well I have all this on my gopro and have reviewed it in detail, From a flying point of view my mistake was lifting the right wing through the flare and loosing centreline control. I am sure there was a psychological component being a low-wing that I didn't want to drag the wing tip on the runway. And yes with the inputs, gusting and turbulence this did feel like a real possibility. I don't think there was so much overconfidence, more not really knowing my limits and some poor judgment of what the actual conditions were. I am certainly more wind-shy now.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What was the aircraft Blur?

 

 

[facthunter]

Healthy respect, not fear.of crosswinds and gusts. When things go pear shaped assess what you have going for you. Be realistic and don't complicate it. If pride comes into it think again. The most important thing is loss of life. Aeroplanes and pride come a big second to that. Everything in flying is a decision making process where you allocate priorities correctly (hopefully) and anticipate possible outcomes (good and bad) Nev.