Latest Jabiru 2200 - reliability

[turboplanner]

My 2c on jab engines. Replace exhaust valves every 300-400 hours max and ensure you replace your flywheel bolts. Those two items alone will save you a lot of grief.

On Gen 4?

 

 

[quentas]

Hmmm gen 4 would be right with flywheel bolts but valves? I'd still be changing them if they are the same type. Valves (exhaust) are the weakest point of a jab engine regardless of its generation. They simply get too hot and stretch and weaken. This takes around 300-400 hours to find out. Maybe the water cooled heads fix the heat problem but introduces other problems. I think the valves need to be of a better material.

 

 

[facthunter]

Perhaps. but replacing them is not a big deal. Jabiru always said look after the top of the engine.. What the exhaust valve puts up with doesn't bear thinking about. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

It would be best just to stick to discussing Gen4, or before you know it, we'll have no idea how the Gen 4 is going because of all the crossover.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Now I'm thinking I should replace the exhaust valves in my 600 hour engine.But it does run fairly cool these days, with 160 C being the max on climb and 140 on cruise. This is in contrast to a Lancair I know, where 190C is commonplace.

 

And I have the small flywheel bolts which are also a worry, so I make very sure that the prop is not hammering on its bolts, and chech this out by using blobs of nail-paint between the driver flange and the prop hub, any cracking of this paint could indicate hammering I think.

 

 

[facthunter]

With the manually adjusted valves you got an indication of valve stretch.(or seats moving into the head). The Hydraulic lifters mask all that.

 

Re reporting only on the later stuff doesn't do a lot for those who will still be running various versions of the older motors. It's reasonable to differentiate when commenting on Jab motors, to avoid confusion. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

With the manually adjusted valves you got an indication of valve stretch.(or seats moving into the head). The Hydraulic lifters mask all that.Re reporting only on the later stuff doesn't do a lot for those who will still be running various versions of the older motors. It's reasonable to differentiate when commenting on Jab motors, to avoid confusion. Nev

I understand it's quite reasonable, but the fog has already started, and while I would certainly not be trying to hide any problems Gen 4 engines might develop, it would be a tragedy if it suffered based on comments which didn't apply to it.

 

 

[Camel]

Now I'm thinking I should replace the exhaust valves in my 600 hour engine.But it does run fairly cool these days, with 160 C being the max on climb and 140 on cruise. This is in contrast to a Lancair I know, where 190C is commonplace.And I have the small flywheel bolts which are also a worry, so I make very sure that the prop is not hammering on its bolts, and chech this out by using blobs of nail-paint between the driver flange and the prop hub, any cracking of this paint could indicate hammering I think.

I did a full top overhaul at 350hours on Gen 2 3300 because of low leak down, a pass but low, it had stuck rings, I'm very glad I did it, I also converted to hollow push rods, it cost just as much to convert to hollow push rods as the top overhaul kit so I spent twice as much as I could have and spent more than required as it only needed a set of rings, I believe the engine was overheated long before I owned it, the engine now has new valves, double valve springs, hard valve washers, hollow push rods and rockers, high leak down lifters, valve relief pistons, new rubber dampened through bolts, new flywheel bolts with star washers and all the rest of the top overhaul stuff !

 

So there are definite improvents made and the engine now gives me some peace of mind as to its reliability, the hollow push rods was probably overkill but I still wanted it ! The engine has done twenty hours and does not burn or use oil and runs fine. Most of the new parts are a big improvement including valves and pistons, my opinion and experience, just sharing and giving my two bobs worth !

 

 

[jetjr]

Almost all 2200 are older types, only a few Gen 4 exist and they have very low hours. This will be the case for some years to come.

 

Id doubt many of the latest version have been taken apart by anyone other than Jabiru at this stage. Its a regular complaint that Jabiru conduct final R&D in customers airframes.

 

Although some parts are shared plenty are not or are at least involve major changes.

 

thread was started almost 3 years before Gen 4 was released and there isnt defined change dates in Jabiru engines anyway.

 

Not sure how much "fog" can be avoided, people just need to be clear what engine they are talking about.

 

 

[facthunter]

there's no real reason some won't keep their older engines running well enough. Heads when over heated are unserviceable at any time if they get hot enough At 4-500 hours I would pull them and service and change valves regardless. It's nor even worth refacing them. As far as the flywheel retention goes it's a dogs breakfast. everyone will have their own ideas. I can't see how you could satisfactorily do it with any oil about the area. If it's coming loose you have a problem. Perhaps the starter action is part of it also. I'd like to se it out the front like a lycoming. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

there's no real reason some won't keep their older engines running well enough. Heads when over heated are unserviceable at any time if they get hot enough At 4-500 hours I would pull them and service and change valves regardless. It's nor even worth refacing them. As far as the flywheel retention goes it's a dogs breakfast. everyone will have their own ideas. I can't see how you could satisfactorily do it with any oil about the area. If it's coming loose you have a problem. Perhaps the starter action is part of it also. I'd like to se it out the front like a lycoming. Nev

Nev - all very good points, and to my knowledge, absolutely correct.

 

There was a damn good reason why CAMit did NOT go to the hydraulic tappets, and in fact produced a kit to revert hydraulic lifters engines to solid lifters. CAMit also produced revised rocker geometry to reduce sideways loading on the valve stems with a much better valve lash adjustment arrangement, but sadly that is no longer available.

 

As for the flywheel attachment: Jabiru changed to 'Nordloc' washers and removed the Loctite securing, some 12 or more months ago. I believe that was a significant improvement and I have made that change on my engine; it's not difficult to do, if you are a competent mechanic, and I'd recommend it to all Jab. engine owners. You need to clean out the threads in the flange with a good-quality tap - not a Bunnings special!

 

One of the major issues for Jab. engines is that the flywheel flange on the crankshaft is small, and if any tension is lost on the flywheel bolts - thus reducing clamping pressure - they will hammer in the threads and expand them because the area of steel around the bolt-threads is marginal. The change from 5/16 bolts to 3/8 bolts, and dowelling - simply shifted the potential failure area from the bolts to the flange. Again, CAMit - just before its demise - had come up with a better arrangement for clamping, but that involved a change to the rear end of the crankshaft. I have no idea of what changes in this area may have been made to the Gen 4 engine but hopefully it has been addressed.

 

 

[facthunter]

You have to clamp the thin flywheel to the face (small as it is) of the crankshaft.. i'd like to see it completely clean and loctite the contact faces Not the bolts. in the 50's quite a few cars had the flywheels come loose. Makes a hell of a racket when it does. Four cylinder motor have ALL pistons coming to a complete stop at the same time twice each time the shaft rotates. This is a reversing of the momentum each time. At the point of no movement the pistons are contributing NO flywheel effect whatever.. Nev

 

 

[biggles]

Due to a progressive loss of compression,(low leak downs) in my Generation 2 Jabiru 2200 with increasing oil consumption (pumping it into the overflow bottle), I suspected jammed rings, after nearly nine years and 450 hours of trouble free operation . The engine has been operated on Avgas exclusively and, apart from its running in period using Shell 100, has had oil changes of Aeroshell 15/50 at 25 hours max.,often very much less. The aircraft, a J160, was built by me and only ever been flown and maintained by me, giving faultless service since new. A top end strip down was done a month ago, confirming jammed rings, some worse than others. All valves were in excellent condition, sealing perfectly and showing no signs of stress due to poor heat transfer. They could well have been returned to service ! The barrels were honed, new valve relief pistons, rings etc. were fitted along with new valves, washers, inner and outer valve springs, rocker bushes (the engine had the old drip lubrication, which I decided to stick with, rather than converting to the hollow push rods.) During an oil change I always open the rocker chambers to ensure adequate lubrication, always giving the springs and rocker bushes a squirt of oil, just to be sure. The old bushes showed minimal wear. Interestingly, the barrels showed no signs of rust, surprising since the aircraft has spent its entire life hangared about 3 nm. from the Victorian coast, with those cold moisture laden Southerlies in Winter. I have always placed covers on both the exhaust and air inlet after shutdown . 'Nordlock' washers were installed on the flywheel bolts along with modified through bolts. After 10 hours the engine is performing well, oil consumption Is minimal, pressures and temps well within operating limits. Nearly all the running- in so far has been achieved with circuits. Total cost of parts amounted to $1700 ...... Bob

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Bob, were the rings clogged with light brown stuff? Have you ever used Morey's or a tank or so of high-octane mogas?

 

In my case, I haven't done those things yet but I'm thinking I should. ( 600 hours 2200A engine)

 

 

[biggles]

Bob, were the rings clogged with light brown stuff? Have you ever used Morey's or a tank or so of high-octane mogas?In my case, I haven't done those things yet but I'm thinking I should. ( 600 hours 2200A engine)

Yes Bruce, " light brown stuff " would be a good description . Nothing but Avgas ever has ever gone into the tanks. Will post a few pics of gummed up pistons as they came out, in the next day or so.

 

At 600 hours, and I assume very little done to the engine, ( although I haven't looked back at all the posts), it's probably time for a good look at the top end. It's all fairly simple stuff, and you could probably get away with new pistons, rings and hone the barrels, but, like most of these things, once you start it makes sense to do all the upgrades etc. 'Camel' (post #203 ) did some good work on his 2200, going even further than I did, with the mod to his rocker lubrication. It's all fairly inexpensive and gives a nice warm and fuzzy feeling ..... Bob

 

 

[ieadave]

Bob. What rocker lube modification are you referencing? Have I missed a service bulletin somewhere?

 

Dave

 

 

[biggles]

Bob. What rocker lube modification are you referencing? Have I missed a service bulletin somewhere?Dave

Dave, the earlier Jabiru engines had a " drip oil feed " system to the rocker chambers, supplied via a small dia. metal pipe to a rubber T piece located externally between the cylinder heads. The oil made its way to the rocker shaft to lubricate the bushes, and the oil vapor in the chamber tended to lubricate valve springs etc. The mod introduced on the later engines is more conventional, in that the oil is forced up the hollow push rods to the rockers, flowing to the bushes and shaft under pressure. This mod can be done to older engines like mine ( #2787), but involves a fair bit more work and expense. I have elected to stick with the original system that works O.K.for me. As I indicated in my earlier post, I always remove rocker covers when changing oil to (a) ensure oil getting into chamber and (b) make sure there is no indication of overheating (metal discolouring etc.)..... Bob

 

 

[ieadave]

Dave, the earlier Jabiru engines had a " drip oil feed " system to the rocker chambers, supplied via a small dia. metal pipe to a rubber T piece located externally between the cylinder heads. The oil made its way to the rocker shaft to lubricate the bushes, and the oil vapor in the chamber tended to lubricate valve springs etc. The mod introduced on the later engines is more conventional, in that the oil is forced up the hollow push rods to the rockers, flowing to the bushes and shaft under pressure. This mod can be done to older engines like mine ( #2787), but involves a fair bit more work and expense. I have elected to stick with the original system that works O.K.for me. As I indicated in my earlier post, I always remove rocker covers when changing oil to (a) ensure oil getting into chamber and (b) make sure there is no indication of overheating (metal discolouring etc.)..... Bob

Thanks. My #22++ 2200 has been through a series of upgrades including hollow push rods over the last few years since my infight loss of a valve at 295 hrs and damage to my case. I now have 470 hrs and still struggle keeping keeping egts in line especially in cold weather. When the fall temperature goes south of 50f or lower I'm pulling on carb heat to stop egts going over the top at 2900 rpm. If your engine was #2787 wasn't it hydrolic like mine or are you flying a 3300?

 

Sorry I don't get on this site often. I monitor the yahoo " jab/camit " site.

 

 

[biggles]

Thanks. My #22++ 2200 has been through a series of upgrades including hollow push rods over the last few years since my infight loss of a valve at 295 hrs and damage to my case. I now have 470 hrs and still struggle keeping keeping egts in line especially in cold weather. When the fall temperature goes south of 50f or lower I'm pulling on carb heat to stop egts going over the top at 2900 rpm. If your engine was #2787 wasn't it hydrolic like mine or are you flying a 3300?Sorry I don't get on this site often. I monitor the yahoo " jab/camit " site.

My 2200 engine was the second "generation" hydraulic engine made by Jabiru. It had the " fine finned heads" ..... Bob

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Wht egt temps were you seeing there in St Lois Dave?

 

 

[ieadave]

Wht egt temps were you seeing there in St Lois Dave?

Mid 1200's (f) in Summer heat up to low 1300's. When fall and cool weather comes I'll go over 1400 if I don't pull carb heat. Cht's have never been an issue since day one. Always within 10 degrees and some time within 3 degrees or even match. CHT's in the 240 (f) range. I was flying only with a full set of CHT gages only before I dropped a valve infight at 295 hrs. Never never ever fly with out a full set of CHT and EGT gages. Jabiru should have made a full set of EGT/CHT's mandatory from year one. I'm in the Midwest and fly mostly under 6000 feet. I also draw my carb air into standard Jabitu air box from under the bonnet. I found this better than tubbing it in from the out side.

Dave

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Dave, I reckon your temps are very good. I flew for about 10 years without cht/egt on all 4 cylinders and I agree about it being a good idea.

 

After doing the instruments, there was a lot of work to do to even them up, but they are still not as good as yours.

 

 

[dlegg]

Your temps are pretty good. Perhaps you might have to go one size up on the main jet over the winter.

 

 

[Balázs Dianovics]

Dear forum members!

 

I am looking for solutions to the questions of my Storch HS Jabiru 2200A (Jab sn: 3823) powered UL airplane, purchased within a year, in barely used condition. I welcome any experience and suggestions. I have heating problems with the cylinder heads (which I may be able to control slowly by cutting out some radiators) but the oil is not so easy to handle. Because of these, the plane is normally unusable. I can only fly it for short tests. With a load of around 2000 RPM, it does not overheat according to the tests, but this is not enough even for the 0 vario. When taking off, I can spin at max speed for about 1.5-2 minutes, which allows me to reach 200-230m, so it would not be suitable for takeoff at a foreign airport on non-flat terrain. The club has a slightly older edition of a similar Storch (Jab sn: 1653) and I started to compare, but this question just kept me going.

The old ones have a cooling fin on the oil pan. What could be the reason why, if this type has heating problems (as I often read), why does the manufacturer reduce the cooling surface?

The new one has a steeper front of the turtle and even the oil dipstick is different. That's why I can't decide on my own whether the Z deformation on the stick is the level indicator or the cross-ribbed part below it? (attached picture) Unfortunately, the length of the rod in the other engine is also different.

The oil cooler on the colleagues' machine also had to be replaced (due to heating, with a larger one), but they also had to adjust the engine compartment cover. Unfortunately, I no longer know the type of cooler, and I would like to receive offers on what I should replace, perhaps so that the Storch engine compartment cover does not have to be plasticized, at most cut out a little?

Also, has anyone encountered a factory-glued tank in a Storch HS wing, because it leaks and we would take it out to repair it, but it is glued, which is necessary for the factory-screwed construction description. I would also like to receive an answer from the factory, but it is said that FlySynthesis does not speak directly to users... 

I used to have a Storch HS 912 machine that I loved, but unfortunately I sold it. I'm crying now, because I had no problem with it, we only had two more children and I didn't have time for sports, but it was a good installation.

 

https://m.mdn.hu/photo/mo/sharing/eNSE5KuWx

[440032]

Hi from Australia.

Looking at your photos link:

The very first thing I see is that your oil cooler was not the one supplied by Jabiru for that age of engine. My own engine is 130 on by serial number from yours. Your cooler is nothing like the one Jabiru supplied back then. I have 550 hours and near 18 years on mine (not in the same type of airplane).

The cooler supplied by Jabiru back then was a small generic automotive transmission cooler with 5/16" (8mm) auto transmission hose.

One of your hoses looks to be way bigger than the other. Hoses are also different to each other.

Your installation is not "by the book." Some may say "so what? - it's just an oil cooler."  I say you're on your own when deviating from the Jabiru manuals and instructions. What you have there is not standard. I have seen a few non-standard installations go bad, big time. That's all I have to offer.

 

The more alarming thing I see in a photo of your propeller hub is the use of mixed and incorrect length bolts and nuts - some nuts are short, some are long, some nuts have no bolt thread showing. Silver nuts? They certainly are not the supplied standard AN hardware. I presume they are metric hardware? Fitted to a 1/4 inch imperial drilled prop hub?

 

me, in OZ.