Latest Jabiru 2200 - reliability

[Old Koreelah]

Hello, another Australian response: you have a neat looking aeroplane.

 

I too had cooling problems with my Jab 2200, but followed advice to very carefully seal every little air leak, so that all incoming air is forced to go through the cooling fins. That reduced my cylinder head temperatures to safe levels.
I can see quite a large gap in one of your pictures- seal these leaks and you might be very happy.
 

Your oil cooler looks the same as the one I’ve used for 12 years. Yours may not be getting direct airflow. It needs to be carefully ducted so no air leaks past it.

Jabiru has changed their oil dipstick several times, so it might be a good idea to add the recommended 2 litres and then calibrate your dipstick yourself. If the oil level is too high, Jabiru engines tend to run hotter and spit out the excess.

 

[facthunter]

When I've flown a jabiru and it starts to get hot I  up the climb speed if safe and that generally works. If your plane is a slow one that option is not really available and you'll have to pay careful attention to everything that helps in the cooling department.  Nev

[RFguy]

That does look like an oil cooler I have seen on many 2200 jabirus.

Likely most likely issue  is that there are leaks around, or the oil cooler is not acheiving enough pressure differential across it.

Using some silicone tube, make up a water manometer  and measure what the pressure difference is between say, in the cabin, and the engine cowling. 

 

Other 'likely' is that the oil cooler has a blockage in it  ! I HAVE seen that....

 

WHen you are climbing in the Storch, what airspeed are you climbing at? It's unlikely the cooling will be adaquite with less than 70 kts of airspeed. 

There are a few other maybes like too much oil frothing the oil maybe, leading to low flow rate. 

Is the oil filter good ? oil pressure - what is it ? what temperatures is the oil getting to ?

 

[pmccarthy]

Was the Jabiru an option from Fly Synthesis on the Storch, or is it a conversion?

[Balázs Dianovics]

First of all, thank you for your quick reply OZ.
Also, I apologize, I see that the uploading of my pictures was misleading, because it is not clear which one was taken from my own machine (I have not uploaded any pictures of my own oil cooler yet) and which one is the rebuilt version of my colleagues working at a good temperature (only these are visible in the photos above). Tomorrow I will go to the airport and take pictures of my own cooler and its mounting, and I will post the pictures of the two machines on two separate links.
This will allow you to separate your own machine from that of your clubmates. Is it possible to know the dimensions of the normal factory refrigerator and perhaps the exact type of car from which it is made? Also, if it turns out that the performance of the cooler is low, what can be done without deviating from the factory and still not boiling the engine? Mainly because I read that it is quite sensitive to heating, which can cause serious operational problems later on.
Also, between which markings on the oil level dipstick can the level be good? The stick in the pictures was only taken from mine, my friend's is completely straight (the friend's is an older engine).
Thank you for the comment about the propeller perception, but I still don't understand it exactly, and it is possible that the photo was not my own, but I will clarify this as well and I will be very grateful if you look at it sorted and we can specify the error.
Tomorrow I'll try to post the fresh photos as soon as possible and I'll also take down my refrigerator and save a little, see if it improves its efficiency enough and I don't even have to replace it.
Until then, best regards: Balázs

[RFguy]

again, need the above information - 

 

1) what airspeed and OAT  are you climbing  at ?

 

2) What is the cross sectional area of the oil cooler ? What is the cross sectional area of the air intake to the oil cooler duct ? What angle is the oil cooler to horizontal ?

 

3) What are the CHTs  during the WOT climb ?

 

assumption is you are climbing always at WOT  . you should be unless you are S&L. WOT is full rich (or should be if the carb is set up correctly), that is how a Jab engine needs to be run.   Operating the engine in a cruise climb  is a recipe for overheating  due to simultaneous reduced airspeed, high power output  and leaner micture.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by RFguy

[Old Koreelah]

Good morning Balázs. 
Oil should cover the lowest, rippled section of the Jabiru dipstick.

 

As the others have said, your airspeed is important; when I climb out steeply, at 60knots, the heads heat up fast, because they’re getting much less airflow.

Jabiru is one of the most intensively-tested aircraft, but I bet the factory only tested their engines installed in Jabiru airframes, which are not designed for slow flight. Therefore, avoid low airspeeds while at full power.

 

Your oil cooler looks like mine, which has been very successful for years. The difference is that mine is mounted horizontally, under the spinner, so it gets plenty of airflow. If yours has been squeezed inside the cowling at an angle, it may not be getting good airflow, unless you carefully design and seal the ducting.

 

You are right to be concerned about overheating the cylinder heads; the alloy Jabiru used is suitable for CNC machining, but not as heat-tolerant as some other engines. If overheated, it permanently softens the metal, leading to the recession of valves and head bolts. My engine has avoided that by staying under 150C. Remove your tappet covers to see the colour of the metal just above the combustion chamber; light brown is okey, black is bad.

[440032]

I give up..........

[Balázs Dianovics]

After my previous reply, I noticed that there was another page of replies. I did not expect this community to be so active, and I am grateful to you for the many great ideas.
What I can answer right now, I'll do it quickly, then I'll go to the machine to get the rest of the information.
If I understand correctly, by the way, most of the comments were about the cooler shown in the pictures, but for me, the much smaller (I think factory) cooler is above and my friends use the one shown in this picture, and I would replace it with a similar one if necessary, but they do not know the type of engine or car, according to which I could order one.
Today I will also share my own pictures on a separate link, so it will be easier to separate the two machines. By the way, my already known answers:

Angle and insulation of the cooler: The device is noticeably turned downwards (toward the ground), and I am surprised if the air passes through it properly, although it is diverted from the inlet opening with a rubber band and the leakage at the bottom is solved with a sponge, in the end maybe the back pressure forces the air into the slats, but I am surprised that the front of the crankcase is almost behind the entire surface. 3 mm close. So as if I were to mount the refrigerator on the wall, I don't know how much draft it can create, but in principle it is a "factory" solution.

The speed of ascent was variable during the tests, but kept between 100-115 Km/h.

In principle, the engine was a factory Fly Synthesis option and they installed it, moreover, since the first owner cut out the previous Jab engine in it during a few flights and supposedly this type has different installation parameters, so in principle the firewall was also rebuilt by the people of Fly Synthesis. I also saw some documents about these during the sale.

Oil should cover the lowest, rippled section of the Jabiru dipstick.
Until now, the oil was not up to the wavy part broken on the Z, but below it I interpreted the Striped pattern as the level and it is leveled up to the top, but if this is certain information, then I still have to fill it in. I didn't even dare to overfill because I heard that this could cause the seals to deform and be ejected, which I also wanted to avoid.

Postscript: OZ, I'm sorry if I explained too much or if I didn't understand for sure, it wasn't my intention. Also, I don't understand why you wrote I give up...
I didn't want to be such a hopeless case...

[Old Koreelah]

30 minutes ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

Angle and insulation of the cooler: The device is noticeably turned downwards (toward the ground), and I am surprised if the air passes through it properly, although it is diverted from the inlet opening with a rubber band and the leakage at the bottom is solved with a sponge, in the end maybe the back pressure forces the air into the slats, but I am surprised that the front of the crankcase is almost behind the entire surface. 3 mm close. So as if I were to mount the refrigerator on the wall, I don't know how much draft it can create, but in principle it is a "factory" solution.

How much air can get through your oil cooler (is that what you’re calling the “refigerator”?) You might have to increase clearance from the engine sump and ensure no air leaks.

 

30 minutes ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

The speed of ascent was variable during the tests, but kept between 100-115 Km/h.

That might be your biggest problem; that’s only 54 to 62 knots- a bit slow. 
Can you test it at 120 km/h? That would be my minimum climbout speed to prevent overheating. (We hear lots about Europe’s heatwaves, so you might be operating in air even hotter than an Australian summer!)

30 minutes ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

Oil should cover the lowest, rippled section of the Jabiru dipstick.

Just make sure you have the recommended amount. (They say 2.2 litres but mine won’t even take two bottles of Shell 100+; the Canadian suppliers use those strange medieval measurements favoured in the USA. I think two bottles is about 1.9 litres).

 

Don’t forget that, if your ram air ducts leak any air, you’ll have problems.

[facthunter]

I can assure you that OUR Hungarian would be a lot worse than Your English. A better name is "heat exchanger". .  Nev

[Balázs Dianovics]

I was outside at the machine and started changing the oil.

 At first it struck me that the engineers had figured it out well, if I want to drain the oil, I have to remove the coller as well... I became "happy", but since the coller is about 3-4 mm from the wall of the oil pan, I will try to adjust it with a small modification, to see if it helps with the development of air flow. Also, I lighten the aluminum body of the side coller so that if I gain a few millimeters for the outflow there, it might also mean 2-3 degrees Celsius. It has also been closed from the side on the oil tank. Also, I hope to be able to change the oil later without removing the cooler this way.
I have now put the material from my own machine (which has a newer engine and heats up) and the pictures of my friends' older engine machine, in which the cooler has been replaced and is running at a good temperature, on two links. Also, it seems that they significantly raised the collar from the engine so that the air can pass through and at a more perpendicular angle. However, their engine cover (as can also be seen) required modification and its air resistance may have increased a little. Well, at least they don't cook the machine...
I don't know how I'm going to ventilate the coller when rebuilding, and I welcome any good ideas and advice.
The weather in our country stays around 37-40 degrees Celsius even in summer, so I think it should still be able to handle that. What did you think of this?
Also, I'm trying to get information about the walk-in engine, because in principle it had 3-4 hours in it when I took it over, and the seller will start the heating for that, so that I can use it, it will just run in and then the temperature will be good, but I'm afraid of that. I didn't find anything on the manufacturer's instructions for running in, and I don't know how long it can take and how to do it, if it really matters. There has been nothing similar for a smooth car for a long time, don't tow a load with it for the first 1000 Km.
I was suddenly able to write so much, but in the seventh year I will try to answer the suggestions more precisely.
PS: I measured the angle and it can be seen in one of the pictures that it is 135 degrees from the vertical. I also put in the instruments to see if anyone knows that a given type is not good, or cheats a lot, etc...

pictures of my own machine: https://m.mdn.hu/photo/mo/sharing/zODeqaBtT
My friend's machine: https://m.mdn.hu/photo/mo/sharing/LRkzn5VA3

Thank you for your help. Regards, Balázs

[Old Koreelah]

9 hours ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

…since the coller is about 3-4 mm from the wall of the oil pan, I will try to adjust it with a small modification, to see if it helps with the development of air flow.

I guess “coller is meant to be “cooler”. It’s a good idea to make only one change at a time before testing, so you can be sure of the effect.

9 hours ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

Also, I lighten the aluminum body of the side coller so that if I gain a few millimeters for the outflow there, it might also mean 2-3 degrees Celsius. It has also been closed from the side on the oil tank. Also, I hope to be able to change the oil later without removing the cooler this way.

You should change the oil every three months, so mounting the oil cooler out of the way seems a good idea.

9 hours ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

Also, it seems that they significantly raised the collar from the engine so that the air can pass through and at a more perpendicular angle.

That sounds like a good idea, even if it means modifying that nice neat engine cowl.

9 hours ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

The weather in our country stays around 37-40 degrees Celsius even in summer, so I think it should still be able to handle that. What did you think of this?

That’s hot. Your Jab engine will need lots of airfow in those temperatures, so you need to climb out at a low angle, higher airspeed. 

 

9 hours ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

I didn't find anything on the manufacturer's instructions for running in, and I don't know how long it can take and how to do…

Try this site:

Engine Run In - Jabiru 2200 Instruction And Maintenance Manual [Page 74] | ManualsLib

WWW.MANUALSLIB.COM

---

Jabiru 2200 Manual Online: Engine Run In. When built, the Jabiru engine is run in on a DYNOMOMETER and cooled with fan driven air. In the absence of a DYNO controlled run, engines can be run-in in the...

 

 

As mentioned by someone earlier, your propeller bolts look dodgy!

They should all be the same length and nylok nuts are required to have at least 1.5 threads exposed, to ensure it’s secure on the bolt.

[facthunter]

The jabiru motors that have no trouble with cooling are usually in the faster planes. 37-40 C and you are  up there with the heat problem. I've flown a 230 in 42 degrees and had to go faster to stop the temps rising too high . It really was too hot sitting in it to fly anyhow. Baffles and reshape inlets and a lip at the exit? .  Do the inner parts of your prop blades have the right shape to put air into the cowl. ?  Nev

[IBob]

37-40' in summer in Hungary?

Budapest is currently showing a high of 32 with the average well below that.
What part of Hungary are we talking about here???

[Balázs Dianovics]

There is no heatwave in the forecast (by the way, most of the flights are near Budapest and Dunaújváros, and Hungary is a very small area), but when there is a 3-5 day heatwave, the air temperature can exceed 40 degrees. One of the pop-up records can be seen in the picture. But of course this is an extreme time and the average is well below that.

Thank you for the run-in parameters, but if I understood correctly, this can no longer be run-in, because they already do this with the engine at the factory before release.?

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions, I'll try the small modifications and climbing at a higher speed (120 Km/h or more) in the next few days and I'll try to see if I can get away with modifying the cover and replacing the coller with a bigger one. Here, of course, I still have a question: if I can only do this at max speed, do I still not produce more heat than what the excess speed means in cooling?

Of course, I would like to stay with the factory solutions, but I don't want this to come at the expense of usability. I hate fixing it and dealing with oily stuff, but I don't want to burn the engine either.
Also, even then, before rebuilding, would it be great information that my own smaller refrigerator is really the common factory solution? Because if I understood correctly in my previous pictures, (the majority here said about my friends' larger refrigerator) that they use it, and it is almost 2.5 * thick than mine, but my friends replaced 100% the factory one, which was even smaller for them than mine... Although knowing this can bring peace of mind only for me, but sometimes it is also something 🙂

[Old Koreelah]

27 minutes ago, Balázs Dianovics said:

Here, of course, I still have a question: if I can only do this at max speed, do I still not produce more heat than what the excess speed means in cooling?

Don’t quite understand your question, but remember that increasing your airspeed has a considerable impact on cooling. ((I believe that if you double velocity, the pressure is squared.)

 

Summary: fix any small air leaks, get more air thru the oil cooler, go faster when climbing. 

[facthunter]

When you are climbing you have climb power set. All you do is increase your climb speed where you can safely have a lesser climb angle.  IF your plane is very draggy this will have a lesser effect and you will have to cool the engine better some other way. There's been a lot of talk about that on this forum over the years.  Nev

[pmccarthy]

I had a FS Texan and it ran hot when climbing in summer, so I had to level out or nearly level out periodically to keep the temperature ok. The Storch may be similar.

[Old Koreelah]

Good morning Balázs, it’s 3am here and I cannot sleep.

 

A few more comments: according to Table 1 (below) your engine is a much later model than your friend’s. Yours would have the latest Flywheel bolt improvements, his does not, unless it has been upgraded. I presume he is aware that his flywheel attachement bolts need to be checked regularly.

 

As mentioned before, your propeller bolts don’t inspire confidence! Fixing that problem would be my first priority. 

I see you have a wooden/composite prop. It’s probably more efficient than the original wooden Jabiru prop that I have. I don’t know the recommended mounting for your type, but for my old wooden prop, each bolt requires four pairs of belleville washers as shown below. I believe these allow a small, natural amount of expansion and contraction of the wood, without crushing the fibres.

Note the even bolt lengths and excess threads clear of the nylock nuts.

(When installing longer bolts, I wouldn’t fit a used nylock nut for a critical job like holding on the propeller- I’d fit new ones.)

 

You’ll notice I have to remove the spinner to inspect prop bolt tension. Your setup, with nuts visible behind the drive plate, might be better in that regard than the standard Jabiru props installation, as seen below:

Below is evidence of how hot my cylinder heads have been; I wouldn’t like it any darker:

 

One way to keep them cooler is to ensure all air that enters your ram air ducts has to go through the cooling fins. I see you have what appears to be a large leak here:

 

 

 

 

 

[Area-51]

On 21/08/2015 at 5:40 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Not what I expected.. the exhaust valve seat had come out and was only held there by the valve. No wonder the compression was zero.

 

I wonder why it came out. The main force is combustion pressure on the valve face, and this force is keeping the seat in.

 

There was no other obvious damage, and the engine never runs hot. It was cleaner inside than I thought.

 

 

 

Valve seats will only fall out in operation due to the mitigating factors at the moment they are installed; most likely insufficient temperature differential clearance factor between cylinder head and valve seat. It is a more common scenario than you might think and can affect any engine employing this method, not unique to just jabiru.

 

As long as there have been valve seat inserts in alloy heads there has been this scenario. Some have an added threaded screw in application to deal with this.

 

boils down to manufacturing tolerances and QA standards to maintain and deliver those.

 

Overheating can also lead to this scenario.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Area-51

[facthunter]

I think screwed in valve seats are long gone. It generally didn't work in the exhaust seat situation. FIT and appropriate metals are the deal now. You certainly don't want them dislodging and if they come loose they COOK due lack of heat transfer and can shrink themselves further. . The advantage of manually adjusted valve clearances is you get an indication of this happening. With hydraulic lifters it's masked.  Nev

[Area-51]

31 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I think screwed in valve seats are long gone. It generally didn't work in the exhaust seat situation. FIT and appropriate metals are the deal now. You certainly don't want them dislodging and if they come loose they COOK due lack of heat transfer and can shrink themselves further. . The advantage of manually adjusted valve clearances is you get an indication of this happening. With hydraulic lifters it's masked.  Nev

Agree

[Old Koreelah]

36 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The advantage of manually adjusted valve clearances is you get an indication of this happening. With hydraulic lifters it's masked.  Nev

Nev this was discussed on the Jab/CAMit engine forum, where it was recommended that the valves on hydraulic heads be regularly rotated to ensure there’s clearance. A fiddly job, but well worth it for peace of mind.

[facthunter]

I don't know what rotated means in your context. Do you mean swapped or made to rotate (which can be done with special washers" Hydraulic lifters often use stronger valve springs also increasing loads.  Nev