Ballistic shute deployed

[fly_tornado]

There are plenty of high time pilots that met an unfortunate end.

 

 

[facthunter]

They must have been the BOLD ones. Funny how hours ( experience) counts when you are after a job. Nev

 

 

[jetjr]

and for your insurance and they analyse it a fair bit

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

which is why GA flying is 7 times more dangerous than driving a car, god knows how dangerous flying a part 103 is.

No more than LSA, many 103 ultralights have over 20/30 years and thousands of hours on them now. Some have had power failures and some haven't. So says the 'Dayton flyers'

 

 

[Geoff13]

While I have nothing against the use of a BRS, in your decision making process, they need to be the "last resort" rather than first thing you do , it appears that a lot of those deployed seem to have other options, but chose to become a passenger.Perhaps a better line of question might be "what part of his decision making process had him flying over trees, that he couldn't glide clear of, if the engine failed?"

This touches on two other threads,

 

One is about circuits. You just need to fly at Caboolture for a couple of days and you will see people flying over trees/houses in the circuit that they can't glide clear of. (There is no need but they do it anyway).

 

And the other thread, I bet that the lady who's husband/PIC passed out would have love to have had a big red handle at some stage during her descent.

 

 

[Marty_d]

The way I read this story, old mate was going out for a fly and his engine started seizing and he pulled his chute because he wasn't going to make it out of the trees. I suspect that many forced landings happen pretty quickly and you don't get a lot of options to chose from.

My local strip, should I ever finish this build, is a 600m strip on top of a hill completely surrounded by trees. Except for a highway which passes to the north and east. The hills are surrounded by other hills. There may be clear areas which aren't visible from the road nearby. Point being that if that were the situation (EFATO) and there are no clear landing sites then to my mind pulling the chute is a perfectly reasonable option.

 

Caveat to that is that I haven't actually flown off that strip, so I might be talking absolute crap and there may be a lovely flat clearing right ahead of the strip, but I can't see it...

 

 

[gibby]

airfactsjournal.com/2015/02/fatal-cirrus-crashes-way-thank-parachute

 

Interesting read, the stats on surviving a crash if you pull the chute are way better than if you dont

 

 

[DGL Fox]

I think in an emergency situation and you have a chute it would be easy to reach up and pull the handle but what we need to know in our minds is when...too pull it and when not too pull it... I think it is all about training...like knowing at what height is high enough and thinking I am not alone here I have my wife sitting beside me do I take the risk with her life as well and try gliding to that unknown paddock or just pull the handle... a lot to think about when you only have seconds to make a decision...

 

So as I said, if you have a chute you NEED to know when it is the best time to deploy it and when not to so training is the key...knowledge is life I think..

 

David

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

There are plenty of high time pilots that met an unfortunate end.

And, f_t, I have known or at least met some of those guys before the mishap. Several reasons for the unfortunate ends come to mind (based on incidents involving some of those pilots). They include: a) thinking that currency in a Gulfstream 650 makes you able to fly a VariEze, an RV-7 taildragger, or an Extra; b) flying F-16s qualify you to fly Cessna 172s [i know of an FBO with a sign over the front desk announcing that they do not rent their Cessnas to military pilots without thorough checkouts]; c) thinking that an instrument ticket is good enough to allow penetration of a cold front with embedded thunderstorms while flying a Piper Warrior or some such aircraft; d) believing your $3000 used Stormscope will take you through a wall of thunderstorms because you can "thread the needle" using the "scope" although two or three airliners ahead of you have asked to deviate; e) believing 7000 hours of delivering packages at night in a twin provides enough experience to try a couple of loops in a friend's Citabria; f) thinking that because they can get a Cessna 421 airborne, their new Pitts S2S will be a piece of cake on takeoff (or landing); f) flying at night without a flashlight (and to their amazement, without instrument lights); etc, etc. One lost a wing; a chute might have helped him, but given the conditions, I tend to doubt it. Better to avoid than to confront some situations. As my signature line says, a person's just gotta know their limitations. Training, currency, respect for the aircraft and the conditions help someone have a good beginning and end to a flight. Depending on a chute to get you out of a glitch is not a good idea in my mind; you plan not to get in that glitch, but knowing that you might, you have alternatives in mind about how to get out of it. The chute is just one of the possibilities already thought through. I keep hearing stories of people flying into bad weather or the night or over mountainous terrain without proper analysis, thought, training or experience thinking they'll make it but planning on using the chute if they do not. Bad idea. Without the chute, perhaps they'd choose not to fly into bad weather or the night or over the mountain range; they'd choose an alternative. Like sleep on it and fly tomorrow, in daylight, after the frontal passage and through the low passes just away from their planned route. My new airplane has a chute First one I've ever had. It will not cause me to be more adventurous than I already am. I just decided that another option might be a good idea. Just in case. IMO, FWIW. Your mileage (or opinion) may vary, etc.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the anti-chute ppl all consider themselves capable of getting out of every situation with their above average skills. it's not different to an airbag in your steering wheel.

 

 

[facthunter]

Bit all embracing ft. People still ride motorcycles, and that's not safe. If you have an inflight fire the chute may not be the go. Primary safety is careful pilotage and a well maintained plane.. A collision with a cable or bird might need a chute. A mid air might kill you anyway at the time of contact. A chute may still result in injury and isn't all upside. If the wind is strong and you ditch it may drown you. Buy one if you want to. I wouldn't want to stop you, but don't make it compulsory for ME. I don't wear one or have a parachute in a commercial Jet either. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If i had an inflight fire I would get to 300' and pull the chute, open the door once the plane slowed and get ready to pull the harness once I had stopped.

 

without a chute you are forced to try and land a burning plane

 

 

[Guernsey]

If i had an inflight fire I would get to 300' and pull the chute, open the door once the plane slowed and get ready to pull the harness once I had stopped.without a chute you are forced to try and land a burning plane

Sounds like quite a good idea but I would be interested as to what you would do if you were at 3,000 ft and had an inflight fire.

 

I'm not trying to be smart here, just curious.

 

Alan.

 

 

[facthunter]

The priority with an in flight fire out of control is get it on the ground ASAP. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

If i had an inflight fire I would get to 300' and pull the chute, open the door once the plane slowed and get ready to pull the harness once I had stopped.without a chute you are forced to try and land a burning plane

Given that parachutes and attaching lanyards are usually synthetic, I'm not convinced that would be a favourable outcome for you.

 

 

[Geoff13]

In the case of an in flight fire if I was capable of getting the aircraft down to 300', I would be landing it. You will land it in less time than the parachute will get you down.

 

1. What if the fire burns through the chute harness. It has stopped your forward motion and then detaches.

 

2. In the case of an in flight fire believe me when I say all you want to do is get on the ground as quickly as possible.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Sounds like quite a good idea but I would be interested as to what you would do if you were at 3,000 ft and had an inflight fire.I'm not trying to be smart here, just curious.

Alan.

doesn't matter what altitude you start at the issue with a fire is the same, you need to use the chute as low as possible

 

 

[Geoff13]

Sounds like quite a good idea but I would be interested as to what you would do if you were at 3,000 ft and had an inflight fire.I'm not trying to be smart here, just curious.

Alan.

Been there done that. Short answer is that all you want to do is get down as quickly as possible. The last thing you want is something impeding your downward journey. Had I had a Ballistic chute that day I would not have used it and had my pax tried to I would have happily chopped her hands off.

 

Admittedly I was at 5900' not 3000 but the ground was at 1500' so the net difference was not far from your scenario.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

In the case of an in flight fire if I was capable of getting the aircraft down to 300', I would be landing it. You will land it in less time than the parachute will get you down.

clearly, not everyone is Chuck Yeager

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Been there done that. Short answer is that all you want to do is get down as quickly as possible. The last thing you want is something impeding your downward journey. Had I had a Ballistic chute that day I would not have used it and had my pax tried to I would have happily chopped her hands off.Admittedly I was at 5900' not 3000 but the ground was at 1500' so the net difference was not far from your scenario.

and how lucky you where that your plane didn't catch fire after it started smoking.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Let me tell you something for free. When you lose sight of your instruments because of smoke, it is very difficult to tell whether your plane is on fire or not. In fact that day I was not certain that the aircraft was not on fire until I was standing beside the fire officer on the ground. And yes you are correct we were about as lucky as anyone can be considering the proximity of the fuel to the source of the smoke, but that does not change the fact that the first priority in that or any similar situation is to get on the ground quickly.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Hope I'm never in that situation Geoff, and I remember having cold chills reading your account of it. I agree - in the event of fire or smoke the last thing I'd want to do is dangle under a chute for longer.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Yes I agree if you had a fire, no chute in that case just get to the ground as fast and as safely as you can..

 

David

 

 

[Guest SrPilot]

the anti-chute ppl all consider themselves capable of getting out of every situation with their above average skills. it's not different to an airbag in your steering wheel.

Hummm. Mind if I take a different approach, f_t?

 

I do not analogize airbags and ballistic chutes. An airbag deploys at the time of a collision. There is no t-handle to pull in order to avoid an impending crash. The bag goes to the crash with you then bursts out in order to minimize injuries. The ballistic parachute doesn't deploy at the moment of impact. If it does, it's a mite late. At least that's my opinion.

 

I analogize ballistic chutes and hammers. Both are tools to be used in appropriate instances for their designed purposes. If my thumb is itching, I don't use a hammer. I just scratch the thumb. If I need to insert a screw, I don't use a hammer; I use a screwdriver. (Now-a-days, I use battery powered screwdrivers - progress being what it is). But if I need to drive a nail, I pull out my hammer and bang away while trying to avoid hitting my thumb lest it throb (but not itch).

 

To me, the idea is to use the right tool in the appropriate circumstances to accomplish the needed task. Ergo, seeing a ballistic chute as a tool, I don't use it to scratch my thumb, drive a screw, or hammer a nail. And I don't use it when the engine coughs while I'm at 3000 feet over or within gliding distance to the airport. In fact, about 2 years ago, while sitting on a seat-pack parachute, I had an ignition failure, intermittent in nature, causing my engine to quit then catch up, then repeat. I was maybe 5 miles out. I just maintained sufficient altitude and did a rather steep approach into the airport with the engine dying and restarting. I knew I would make the airport and could successfully execute a landing. I never reached "bail out" on my list of options ("decision tree"). [i must admit though that it had my attention and things could have changed at any moment.] (malfunctioning mag switch).

 

Last year, flying backseat in an acquaintance's airplane during a formation practice session we blew a seal in the prop. We immediately turned to the airport 28 miles away. Both of us thought we had lost part of a prop blade. We were experiencing sever buffeting and we were prepared to depart the airplane if necessary. Instead, the pilot diagnosed the problem - the prop had changed pitch and we were getting oil, lots of oil, all over the cowling and canopy. He slowed the airplane and the buffeting ceased. The pilot could not see and was a stranger to the area so I gave directions to the home field while the other two pilots communicated with the tower. We had zero oil pressure, but the pilot wanted to save the airplane if possible and we had altitude to play with. We made it. Of course, we didn't have a ballistic parachute option in that plane but we both were sitting on chutes. They were there if we needed them. We sure could have used some oil though. All of the oil was on the outside of the airplane. I think it is probably difficult to realize just how much oil is in a big radial engine until it begins spreading over the fuselage. What a mess!

 

If someone doesn't have a chute, that doesn't keep them from knowing their options beforehand and being prepared to exercise options quickly in case an "out" is needed. On the other hand, if a chute is available, that adds an option otherwise not in the decision tree. And if the circumstances dictate, exercise the option and hit the nail. But IMO, it's always a matter of choosing the best option after a rapid (if necessary) assessment of the situation. I never plan to bail out (chute pack) or use a ballistic chute (as is in my new airplane), but dang nab it, I'll sure use the best tool available if the circumstances so dictate.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

ever since cirrus rolled out the BRS chute and people have been getting killed in SR22's, the anti-chute people have been saying the presence of the chute is encouraging people to take more risks there by nullifying the safety benefit.