Private airstrip access

[Geoff Hazelton]

Hi, I have a private airstrip on Sunshine Coast QLD. Can local council stop my friends from landing? When I have given permission to land on my strip.

 

regards Geoff

 

 

[cooperplace]

I suspect such action by them would be ultra vires, that is beyond their power. Here in SA the local govt act would give them the power to regulate would sort of business activities you can run, but flying is regulated by federal bodies. Some local councils doubtless take a different view, because they can be interfering busybodies and uninformed bullies. Have you checked the Qld equivalent of the local government act?

 

Beware of councils (or any govt dept) that says "we have legal advice saying such-and-such" because they either make this up or their advice is in-house and biased towards them. I respond "well my legal advice is different, let's test it in court" and they usually go away. Especially if you add "you know of course that council will hang you out to dry when you lose".

 

Hopefully our legal eagles here will have Qld experience with this.

 

 

[Camel]

I know nothing of legal issues but I too have a private strip and my understanding is noise that is something that council has control over especially weekends and early morning. Once noise is an issue then it concerns council and the zoning plays a part too.

 

I avoid making any noise near neighbours for that reason, the first other plane came in a couple of days ago and the neighbour commented that it was louder than mine, definitely a worry !

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Hi, I have a private airstrip on Sunshine Coast QLD. Can local council stop my friends from landing? When I have given permission to land on my strip.regards Geoff

Hi Geoff

I saw that come through on the Ycab newsletter last week and thought it very odd that the council could even take that action. I always do my airwork over the top of your place for safety just in case. I would take them to task if it was me or if you want we could always organise a short flyin every weekend if you want to push the point

 

Mark

 

 

[Cosmick]

Sounds like there has been a noise complaint. But knowing Doc to your west and north I would doubt there would be any concern there.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

This is what came in the newsletter..... MBRC is the Moreton Bay Regional Council...they are the local council for the area...it is a very large council so it seems it is a council ruling and based on noise.

 

Someone with more legal eagle ability on this forum should have a reasonable opinion on here for Geoff as regards his position

 

HAZELTON FOR PRACTICE EMERGENCY APPROACHES

 

DOWN TO 500 FEET ONLY

 

MBRC has confirmed that the only permitted landings and take offs at Hazelton are personal and private operations by the property owner and no one else, even with the owner’s permission.

 

Unless you are prepared to accept a penalty of $11,780 per landing (business) or $2,356 (private) do not even think about Hazelton except for a genuine emergency.

 

However MBRC acknowledges that CASA regulations permit practice forced landing approaches to Hazelton to a minimum 500 feet, provided you respect local Fly Neigbourly guidelines.

 

To quote the council:

 

If undertaking forced landing practices in open fields, gunning engines to recover aircraft control should not be done over dwellings as this always results in complaints to the Council from terrified residents.

 

The noise sensitive area to avoid at Hazelton is Meldale, North East of the strip.

 

CAC Committee

 

 

[Cosmick]

Gees thats big of em considering the airfield is not in a built up area so down to 500ft is permitted anyway. A complaint from 2.5km away, shiit, Fly neighborly would be the proactive way. Go to MBRC with a Noise abatement chart as there are corridors available. I see the Poultry business to you south has doubled, hows the odour.

 

 

[aj_richo]

"Unless you are prepared to accept a penalty of $11,780 per landing (business) or $2,356 (private) do not even think about Hazelton except for a genuine emergency"

 

Geez, have they got inspectors stationed at either end of the runway during daylight hours?

 

Using LH and RH circuits would avoid the built up areas quite nicely?

 

 

[Nobody]

Without a bit more information it is hard to provide specific advice. The rules for what you can do with land for Moreton Bay Regional Council are here:

 

https://www.moretonbay.qld.gov.au/subsite.aspx?id=73667

 

There is no specific mention of an airstrip in either the rural or rural residential. Often it can be argued that an airstrip use is consistent with rural activites eg aerial spreading, farm inspection however that is harder if the area is zoned rural residential.

 

It also isn't clear if the airstrip is existing and with approval and this is a new council restriction in response to a complaint, or if this is a resection imposed in applying for a new airstrip. If it is the first case then your argument is easier. I suspect that some good professional advice is worthwile if you want to push it.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Geoff would be able to tell us how long the airstrip has been there...as far as I know probably well more then 20 years on freehold land

 

 

[Tex]

This is what came in the newsletter..... MBRC is the Moreton Bay Regional Council...they are the local council for the area...it is a very large council so it seems it is a council ruling and based on noise.Someone with more legal eagle ability on this forum should have a reasonable opinion on here for Geoff as regards his position

 

HAZELTON FOR PRACTICE EMERGENCY APPROACHES

 

DOWN TO 500 FEET ONLY

 

MBRC has confirmed that the only permitted landings and take offs at Hazelton are personal and private operations by the property owner and no one else, even with the owner’s permission.

 

Unless you are prepared to accept a penalty of $11,780 per landing (business) or $2,356 (private) do not even think about Hazelton except for a genuine emergency.

 

However MBRC acknowledges that CASA regulations permit practice forced landing approaches to Hazelton to a minimum 500 feet, provided you respect local Fly Neigbourly guidelines.

 

To quote the council:

 

If undertaking forced landing practices in open fields, gunning engines to recover aircraft control should not be done over dwellings as this always results in complaints to the Council from terrified residents.

 

The noise sensitive area to avoid at Hazelton is Meldale, North East of the strip.

 

CAC Committee

It would be interesting to see where the MBRC claim the offence is created to allow a penalty and then where they get the power to enforce it.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

The real situation is somewhat complex.

 

The basic situation is that a council in queensland IS able to enact by-laws which restrict aviation activities on private strips (in any form of zoning from residential to rural.)

 

The history is somewhat in convoluted but as a short précis

 

In the 1990s a guy named Bob Norman built a helipad on his acreage property near Cairns. The aviation safety rules were all adhered to. The local council told him he couldn't. He took them to court and won. The basic premise being that the law says you have a right to access your property and there was no limitation in law as to what means you gained that access.

 

But the queensland government in a fit of pique decided that that had to do something about this and the law was changed. So now the law says that regional councils are allowed to set limitations not based on the right to access but on the right of others not to be adversely affected by that access.

 

The current mareeba shire council has enacted a by law that now bans all private strips within the shire boundaries. Another guy who has a spitfire and flies out of a strip near the town of Kuranda was initially told he could not have a strip ( after initially being given approval and after the strip was in existence). He is now only allowed limited personal use of the strip with strict limits on numbers of landings and takeoffs.

 

Of course all laws can be lobbied to be changed and all rulings can be fought in court - whether you would win or whether it is worth the cost and sufferance is another thing.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I keep telling the Singleton Council that all noise complaints are handled by Airservices Australia and Local Govt is not legislated to act on them. When they insisted on noise tests it backfired on them and the complainer as they were quieter than expected and hence more daily movements could be made than what was currently allowed. If your aircraft is certified or was built in Europe, then it has passed noise tests. Use this information to dazzle council with fancy footwork.

 

 

[Downunder]

I know someone who does not have an airstrip.

 

They have a long straight road on their property........

 

 

[Geoff Hazelton]

Hi, thanks for all the feed back.

 

From my understanding all the complaints come from one person , A Mr KING , who lives approx. 1 km to the Nth not N-E as the council said.

 

This person complains about road noise, boat noise ,farm noise and aircraft noise plus others things.

 

I personally went to see him to talk about the aircraft but he insisted that the council was the correct way.

 

I am currently going through the right to information from the council to confirm that it is still him making the complaints.

 

My airstrip was built before the Caboolture one. It is 960 metres and runs N-S.

 

All my neighbours have no problems with aircraft activities.

 

The big stick attitude of the council is what concerns me. They could have just noted a sensitive area and asked pilots to avoid when possible.

 

I have had a personal conversation with a council staff on my property explaining the free use of the airspace above my property, but still this letter came out. I guess some people can't be told and just want the last word.

 

More to the point I want my friends to be able to drop in and not be threatened with a fine. And YES who is going to dob them in?

 

 

[Pearo]

Hi, thanks for all the feed back.From my understanding all the complaints come from one person , A Mr KING , who lives approx. 1 km to the Nth not N-E as the council said.

This person complains about road noise, boat noise ,farm noise and aircraft noise plus others things.

 

I personally went to see him to talk about the aircraft but he insisted that the council was the correct way.

 

I am currently going through the right to information from the council to confirm that it is still him making the complaints.

 

My airstrip was built before the Caboolture one. It is 960 metres and runs N-S.

 

All my neighbours have no problems with aircraft activities.

 

The big stick attitude of the council is what concerns me. They could have just noted a sensitive area and asked pilots to avoid when possible.

 

I have had a personal conversation with a council staff on my property explaining the free use of the airspace above my property, but still this letter came out. I guess some people can't be told and just want the last word.

 

More to the point I want my friends to be able to drop in and not be threatened with a fine. And YES who is going to dob them in?

You sir, are a genuine asset to flight training in the area. I have done many a forced landing practice at you airfield. If there is anything I can do to help you, please let me know.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Existing use is a big thing as well, do not make any concessions as you will give up those existing use rights. Do not acknowledge any council communication other than referring them and "Norman" to Airservices Australia. There is also taking old mate 'Norman" to court and having him labeled as a Vicious Complainer. By the sounds of him that would not be hard to do.

 

 

 

[Jaba-who]

I think there is always potential for a win but it depends on how much you want to expend in energy and time and money.

 

The guy who beat the council here is a land developer and is always in court about something to do with that so it held no fears for him.

 

The other found it just too hard.

 

Councils don't follow logic and sometimes defy even any form of sense. The Kuranda guy eventually got told he could have a set maximum of movements a month to limit noise impact. Then the complainants demanded he supply them with a monthly log of his movements because the noise was too quiet for them to know or count how many movements he made. And believe it r not the council agreed initially!

 

His legal support pointed out that the very reason the restrictions were in place was because the complainants said the noise disturbed their lifestyle.

 

But now they were saying they couldn't hear it well enough to o know how many times he did it.

 

Eventually the council agreed he didn't have to supply the log but restrictions remained.

 

Go figure.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Existing use is a big thing as well, do not make any concessions as you will give up those existing use rights. Do not acknowledge any council communication other than referring them and "Norman" to Airservices Australia. There is also taking old mate 'Norman" to court and having him labeled as a Vicious Complainer. By the sounds of him that would not be hard to do.

The problem with this is that air laws do not override local council laws. If the air law is broken then they would both add together against you but you can't use compliance with air law to negate a local council by law.

 

I would continue to add it into the argument but they are easily disregarded because they are not the factors being considered by the council or their by laws.

 

Some local by laws can even override existence if it's deemed that the activity constitutes such a s danger that to allow it to continue would against public safety.

 

There are a few lawyers with aviation law experience who advertise in the aviation journals and mags and if you want to embark on the fight then one of them might well be the first person to get some advice from. Try to get one from your own state if you can because local council laws vary from state to state.

 

 

[microman]

This is becoming a real problem - even here in NZ where our aviation activities generally appear to be much more lightly regulated than in Oz. Some years ago our local council produced a draft District Plan which banned flying off your own property (there are already a couple of places in NZ where such is prohibited). Fortunately the greenies who wrote the District Plan overstretched themselves by trying to ban many other activities also (jet-boating, chainsaws etc) and after 1200 submissions were received opposing the Plan, the Council realised it would take some years to hear them all, and scrapped the Plan. A replacement Plan omitted most of the really mad restrictions, however in the meantime some private pilots flying off their own properties had taken legal action against the council and managed to get a negotiated compromise by-law which restricts the numbers of takeoffs & landing in any 14 day period but is nevertheless manageable. Of course no-one is monitoring them and so the whole process has become a farce. I am afraid this sort of nonsense will only get worse as time goes by.....

 

 

[Ada Elle]

The problem with this is that air laws do not override local council laws. If the air law is broken then they would both add together against you but you can't use compliance with air law to negate a local council by law.

Does the council have the right to regulate what happens in the air above it? To what altitude?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Ask the council for a copy of their noise regulations. Mine doesn't even have any, its purely based on what complainants feel and hinges on whether the complainant is willing to go to court and prove his case. This means of course going forward the complainant cannot make any noise that may disturb you.

 

Also record every conversation and phone call with the council - I saved recordings of calls with my council after one of it's inspectors attempted to extort money after a neighbours noise complaint. After that situation I no longer allowed them access to the property, if they request this insist upon dealing only with an independent arbitrator. Also make sure the council get to pay for everything, never outlay any of your own money. A situation where it takes their time and costs them money is a good one.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hi, I have a private airstrip on Sunshine Coast QLD. Can local council stop my friends from landing? When I have given permission to land on my strip.regards Geoff

Yes they can, but subject to Planning Regulations.

You need to find out what the Zoning is on your property, which can be done on line.

 

Then you need to look up the Uses in that Zone

 

These are State regulations, and the following link is for the Victorian Rural Living Zone (RLZ)

 

This shows that an airfield is not in the list which can operate without a permit, and is not in the prohibited list, but falls into a category where you are required to apply for a permit.

 

http://www.dtpli.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/230292/35_03.pdf

 

This is a link to

 

http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agriculture/farm-management/business-management/planning-applications-in-rural-areas/rural-zones-explained

 

If you can show you have been operating the airfield for more than seven years, you may have Existing Use Rights, in which case no one can tell you to stop using it, or make you do anything different to what you've been doing for seven years.

 

In either case, since, having been brought to the attention of the Council, the end result is that you could be shut down, I would strongly recommend you contact a Planning Consultant who will verify your Zoning, verify your Use Status and give you a strategy.

 

If you've been doing endless circuits and buzzes over the neighbours' homes you can pretty much kiss it goodbye unless you have Existing Use Rights, because you can bet they will have photos and diarised times. If you've just been using it occasionally, staying clear of their houses, the Planning Consultant will advise the best strategy to follow. Public campaigns don't count for much because if there is strong opposition it will usually make its way to QCAT where the Member is likely to do the analysis on whether it's a permitted Use or Not, and whether to direct the Council to issue a Permit or not. (which is why I suggested looking it all up in the beginning.)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Does the council have the right to regulate what happens in the air above it? To what altitude?

No, the CAR's take care of that nicely with minimum altitudes over built up areas and the 500 ft minimum.

But you can't land without the wheels touching the ground and then you are in the definition of an airfield, and the definitions can be very restrictive. For example in Victoria, if Motor Racing is prohibited in the Zone that knocks out all the hoons and trailbikers, even if they are not racing, because they are called up in the Motor Racing definition.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Does the council have the right to regulate what happens in the air above it? To what altitude?

As far as the exact altitude is concerned That I don't know. But there are already many laws that apply to airspace over other people's private property. For instance it is currently illegal to fly a drone low over neighbours property or to build a tower on your boundary and then extend it horizontally over your neighbours property.

But in this case I suspect we are talking about airspace higher than that and at lower levels it's about the owners own airspace. So that bit of it does probably not apply so long as you don't approach at very low levels over other people's property.

 

But they can make regulations about activities without reference to the air space itself.

 

They can make regulations which ban lots of activities. For instance in residential areas they can ban people parking their semi-trailers outside their house or even in certain situations on their own property where gaining that access may interfere with other residents (or ban them from idling all night to keep the contents of the fridge-trailer cold. )

 

They can ban "landing or taking off in an aircraft" using that terminology without reference to the legality of using or undertaking airspace activity or general terms relating to airspace. So it for instance might be illegal to fly a plane but not to fly a kite or extend a banner up on a very long pole.

 

But all of this is variable because where one council gets all narky about it and bans unreasonably another might not even bother considering it.

 

The over-riding point is you need to get as much information as possible about the local by laws. And councils are often unwilling to supply it unless you have a legal eagle doing the asking. So you might find having proper legal representation is the only way to actually get the information you need.

 

That's not always the case and finding a local councillor who is also a pilot can be very helpful.