Ada Elle Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Well, my question was regarding PFLs over a property which has granted permission. Does the local government have any say in that if the wheels never touch the ground?
turboplanner Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Well, my question was regarding PFLs over a property which has granted permission. Does the local government have any say in that if the wheels never touch the ground? There will be a definition for "airport" or "airfield" in each State. They may all be different. Usually in the definition there are comments on what is permitted. In Victoria there is a second regulation which relates to the distance from Melbourne's two major airports and has some additional conditions.
Camel Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Hi, thanks for all the feed back.From my understanding all the complaints come from one person , A Mr KING , who lives approx. 1 km to the Nth not N-E as the council said. This person complains about road noise, boat noise ,farm noise and aircraft noise plus others things. I personally went to see him to talk about the aircraft but he insisted that the council was the correct way. I am currently going through the right to information from the council to confirm that it is still him making the complaints. My airstrip was built before the Caboolture one. It is 960 metres and runs N-S. All my neighbours have no problems with aircraft activities. The big stick attitude of the council is what concerns me. They could have just noted a sensitive area and asked pilots to avoid when possible. I have had a personal conversation with a council staff on my property explaining the free use of the airspace above my property, but still this letter came out. I guess some people can't be told and just want the last word. More to the point I want my friends to be able to drop in and not be threatened with a fine. And YES who is going to dob them in? Take a look at this, wonder if it can be used in your favour. http://www.ano.gov.au
turboplanner Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Hi, thanks for all the feed back.From my understanding all the complaints come from one person , A Mr KING , who lives approx. 1 km to the Nth not N-E as the council said. This person complains about road noise, boat noise ,farm noise and aircraft noise plus others things. I personally went to see him to talk about the aircraft but he insisted that the council was the correct way. I am currently going through the right to information from the council to confirm that it is still him making the complaints. My airstrip was built before the Caboolture one. It is 960 metres and runs N-S. All my neighbours have no problems with aircraft activities. The big stick attitude of the council is what concerns me. They could have just noted a sensitive area and asked pilots to avoid when possible. I have had a personal conversation with a council staff on my property explaining the free use of the airspace above my property, but still this letter came out. I guess some people can't be told and just want the last word. More to the point I want my friends to be able to drop in and not be threatened with a fine. And YES who is going to dob them in? Sorry Geoff, I should have read right through the thread before making my earlier comments. This one may be simple to fix. Caboolture Airfield was established previous to 1965; If yours was there before then, and has been continuously used as an airfield, then it probably qualifies as an Existing Use Right which legitimises it in its original purpose (aircraft operating from an airfield are expected to produce a typical amount of noise), regardless of any newer Planning Schemes or Zoning. If that is the case, and the person from the Council who approached you was a Planning Enforcement Officer, you can provide evidence that you have Existing Planning Rights, and he can then tell Mr King that you are entitled to make the noise, end of story. If he wasn't from the Planning Department, I'd recommend asking for a meeting with the Planning Manager, showing him your evidence, and he will advise whoever spoke to you that he can't take action because the operation is lawful. I haven't got the time just now to search the Queensland Planning regulations, but I did find that the Queensland Local Government Act 1936 was amended in 1975 to include a clause protecting existing lawful non-conforming Uses. If this personal approach fails, then hire a Planning Consultant who should be able to fix it.
Geoff Hazelton Posted September 4, 2015 Author Posted September 4, 2015 Thanks everyone, There is no problem with me using the strip but I want my friends to be able to drop in. I guess I just fly a lot with my friends at my airstrip. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! regards, by the way I love to see aircraft above me 1
Geoff13 Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 I am glad you love seeing airplanes above you Geoff. I have flown my Hanuman within glide of either your field or Caboolture for more than 20 hours over the last 3 weeks. Glad that I am not upsetting you. And honestly all my emergency drills have me applying power above 500 ft. And I certainly fly away from any and all businesses and residences especially the chicken farms when I do practice emergencies in that area.
Kyle Communications Posted September 6, 2015 Posted September 6, 2015 Was doing some airwork over your place mid morning today Geoff H .Mostly bet 2500 and 3000 so no noise from me at all for your neighbour. Please keep us informed on any outcomes with the council please. I am sure we could always organise a swarm of 500 ft missed approaches over a certain address 1
Geoff Hazelton Posted September 6, 2015 Author Posted September 6, 2015 Yes, will keep you updated as it happens, regards
Geoff Hazelton Posted October 18, 2015 Author Posted October 18, 2015 Hi All, the latest discussion with Morton Bay Regional Council about the use of my private airstrip is: yes, all my friends can fly in to visit me as well as full use by me and my family. I suggested that their letter to all the flying fields in my area was over the top and "the big stick" approach to solve a simple problem. Obviously the council could not to be seen to back down or admit it was aggressive. Life goes on, I am very happy to see aircraft above my farm. To my friends, feel free to give me a call so you can drop in. And all this over 1 complainer 1.3km away to the Nth. regards Geoff Hazelton. "Hazelton's airfield", Toorbul, QLD 7
DrZoos Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Ozzie makes a really valid point...if you can have that guy labeled a serial complainer or vexatious by a judge, council will feel a lot more comfortable listening to you and ignoring him....even if you dont want to go to court, at least dig some dirt to establish a list of complaints that you can have in paper to attxh to any letter or show anyone you are conversing with...this person probably has a trail of complaints to the local paper and other organisations.... turbo planner might be good to comment on existing use,he made some valdi points elsewhere on the topic and said NEVER concede any existing usage rights ever without comsulting your own planning expert as once you comcede anything,your existing use rights are GONE. 1
SSCBD Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Sorry over these sort of things that have an existing runway for years, and then people build and complain. You could make his life hell with some loud chainsaws, lawnmowers and music in the afternoon early evening. Fire with fire till he agrees to play nice and sign a nice letter to the council and withdraw any complaint. These people are just weird that they think have more rights then others who were there first and operating legally. Childish - but effective. 1
Nightmare Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Thanks everyone,There is no problem with me using the strip but I want my friends to be able to drop in. I guess I just fly a lot with my friends at my airstrip. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! regards, by the way I love to see aircraft above me Like many others, I have viewed your strip from above, and wondered what it's like down there. Count me in if you can and want a fly-in at your place, it'd be great to say gidday:victory:
MarcK Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 It's time for constant 500ft air work by every possible participant. Stay within the law but exercise your rights to the maximum extent. Once this "crisis" reaches breaking point then negotiate back from that point. Having to beg to maintain current activity levels due to a single complaint is appalling. I had a discussion with local council about the length of my grass. It was long but I was not able to rectify it. I received a letter from the council threatening a fine of about 6k plus costs to cut the grass. So I called the guy and had a chat. I explained that I currently didn't have the recorces to pay someone or the time due to my mother being on deaths door step. He basically said he didn't care and I had about 10 days to comply. So I just said to him that I am going to go cover all the grass with round up to kill it and I will burn it all on the morning of day 10 because that's the only option I had to me And hung up the phone. About 2 mins later he calls me back and his approach changed and we negoiated an agreeable outcome for both of us. They have no reason to negotiate at this stage so why try and help.
spacesailor Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Just another silly question. But if a community/suburb, puts in a complaint over the noise (70db+) from a nice new airport, (and to who to send to), could anything be done to get a sound reduction down to acceptable levels?. spacesailor
turboplanner Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Just another silly question.But if a community/suburb, puts in a complaint over the noise (70db+) from a nice new airport, (and to who to send to), could anything be done to get a sound reduction down to acceptable levels?. spacesailor Where a complaint is made about a Use, the local Council will usually go and talk to the owner. What they should do, if say, the Use is an Airfield, is tell the complainant to get lost, but some immediately threaten to sue, so the Council takes a conciliatory approach, such as is it possible to limit the number of aircraft, or is it possible to avoid a certain local area or is it possible to restrict operational times. If you have an Existing Right Use, or a Permit, this is where you have to be very careful, because most property owners just get sucked in and before they know it, they have agreed to amended Use conditions, or even a different Use which rightly the didn't have to agree to. It's best BY FAR to have a Planning Consultant analyse the situation, and in what I've just outlined he may well restrict your statement to saying "No" Most casesare not as clear cut as this; the operator may be abusing the system, say by allowing motorcross bikes to hold meetings etc. and if there's any doubt, the Council may decide to take it to VCAT, SCAT, NCAT, QCAT etc where it will be adjudicated. In the case where you have Existing Use Rights, the Tribunal will usually find in your favour, and that's then end of it, permanently (unless the Tribunal has erred in process, which can then be taken to the Supreme Court....but they almost never err)
spacesailor Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 TurboPlanner The airport is not built yet, but their own planning is for the new flight path to go over a few suburbs, with a 70plus db noise level, 24/7, with no days off. "The public will have the next 60 days to comment on the draft plan and environment impact statement". spacesailor
turboplanner Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 TurboPlannerThe airport is not built yet, but their own planning is for the new flight path to go over a few suburbs, with a 70plus db noise level, 24/7 with no days off. spacesailor Sorry, there are two private airstrips going and I thought this was the other one; will have another look.
turboplanner Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Sorry, there are two private airstrips going and I thought this was the other one; will have another look. OK, in this case, referring to a "nice new airport" Firstly, the question is whether the new airport is in the correct zone, and has a permit to operate as an airport. If it has been issued with a permit by the Council, the complainant has a fixed time, usually 90 days to object thorugh the State Civil Appeals Tribunal. In this situation, the Council is the defendant on the Airport's behalf and will defend its decision. If the Tribunal finds the Council made a mistake, it might overturn the permit, which is a final "No Airport". (Note that this can only be done during this short post-Council-decision phase. However, if the Tribunal upholds the Council decisions, the complainants can whistle and squeak all they like. Before quoting any dbA figures, I would recommend you take a few readings. The benchmark for noise walls next to freeways is a maximum 63 dbA. If the freeway complies with this, it stays. Something like a 180 or 182 with very loud prop noise might move the meter, but I'd be very surprised if the noise was up to 70, unless the houses end at the runway fence.
spacesailor Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Well a fully loaded jumbo, taking off will be full bore throttle and noise to deafen, so workers will be issued will ear protection. People outside the airport fence will not get that equipment. spacesailor
turboplanner Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Well a fully loaded jumbo, taking off will be full bore throttle and noise to deafen, so workers will be issued will ear protection.People outside the airport fence will not get that equipment. spacesailor On Geoff Hazelton's private strip?
spacesailor Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 From their site, to appease us ?. "People will be close enough to hear aircraft taxiing, and during landings and takeoff when a Boeing 747 can generate up to 90 decibels, plus overflight noise". spacesailor
turboplanner Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 From their site, to appease us ?."People will be close enough to hear aircraft taxiing, and during landings and takeoff when a Boeing 747 can generate up to 90 decibels, plus overflight noise". spacesailor This thread is about a private strip on the Sunshine Coast; not sure where you are talking about; 747 operations will usually be at airports where there is Federal/State Government involved in the zoning. Check the DOTARS website for the current Australian Design Rule for drive by noise. It used to be 95 dbA for a motor vehicle, measured from the side of a road. The 90 figure for a 747 depends on where that was measured from, but if it was at the perimeter fence, it wouldn't be far from the permitted motor vehicle drive by noise at your front fence.
coljones Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 From their site, to appease us ?."People will be close enough to hear aircraft taxiing, and during landings and takeoff when a Boeing 747 can generate up to 90 decibels, plus overflight noise". spacesailor 747s and A380s at 1500ft aren't too bad. We get them all the time, mainly packing jetsetters from the Western Suburbs, North Shore and Blue Mountains off on annual holidays or bringing in another shipment of flowers or smartphones. Probably the worst are the choppers chasing hoons up Paramatta Rd every night. The noise from small strips isn't excessive. It might be intrusive but that is the cost of living in a society. Everyone does something intrusive, society can't avoid it. 1
spacesailor Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Coljones 3.7-kilometre runway, not too small a strip! It seems the "sydney airport company" aren't too happy to take it on, so lets give Lindsay Fox a go as he owns" Avalon" airport, Located 55km from Melbourne’s CBD, spacesailor
spacesailor Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Sorry for thread drift!, Just irate over Sydney's new airport. Its certainly isn't public. spacesailor
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