flyvulcan Posted September 13, 2015 Author Posted September 13, 2015 ?? :closer to a major centre than Narromine /Dubbo .:Where oh where is the major centre 40 minutes drive away from Bathurst. spacesailor Actually, I was referring to Sydney as the major centre (perhaps I should have put major city). If Dubbo is considered to be a major centre, since Bathurst and Dubbo have pretty close to the same populations and levels of services/facilities, Bathurst can be considered a major centre and it's not 40 minutes away from the airfield, it's only 5. Perhaps this is one aspect that makes Bathurst more desirable than Narromine. However, there are many more criteria to consider when comparing the two. The colder weather as it affects camping is one drawback for Bathurst that has been raised. One of the aims of suggestions is to stimulate discussion and pros and cons will be raised for each suggestion. The bigger an audience that participates will help determine the viability of suggestions so keep the suggestions/feedback coming.
AllanBendigo Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Remember the airport has to have no RPT so you do not need an ASIC card. There are a lot of pilots that do not have one so that rules out Dubbo, Bathurst etc 2
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 You dont see visiting oversease bands holding rock concerts in the outback for a reason...and if they have one australian stop its usually Sydney or Melbourne...there is a logical reason for this which i wont explain...you either get it or dont... So our national fly ins ought to follow a similar principal and revolve either around a permanent position west if Sydney that is accessable from Melb and Ql.d or hold a biannual that is Sw of Sydney one year and NW of Sydney the next. Havng said that RAA has stats on where our members are and ought to easily be able to identify one to two logical locations. I would have thought Bathurst is a pretty logical location for 80% of members
robinsm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I thought Temora was pretty damned good, great underwing camping, great food stalls, friendly locals and good grog from the aeroclub. The locals were well on side. Plenty of airspace, no controlled space around. A great museum that flies regularly (shame they didnt combine it with the Raa Aus flyin.) Narromine...too far for genuine old ultralights that dont do super fast speeds, this year was the same as the last at Temora...hows that working for you.
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 You dont see visiting oversease bands holding rock concerts in the outback for a reason..I would have thought Bathurst is a pretty logical location for 80% of members Go back to my post 81 earlier in this thread and reread it. I don't think that the general public who is looking to be "entertained" will drive 3 hours each way from Sydney to go to the airshow. So even Bathurst isnt even close enough for them. Bathurst also has some significant negatives, including RPT so that makes operating the airshow difficult as well as needing greater security and ASICs. It also lacks the amenities for camping so these would have to be brought in at a cost. It also lacks 2 directions of sealed runways leading to the risk that the airshow could be cancelled if the wind is the wrong direction. It also dosent have much of a taxyway system so that departing aircraft need to backtrack slowing departures. There is a lot less parking area for aircraft and any airshow that uses the main runway as the display line means that the spectators are facing directly west into the sun. If the event is moved to Bathurst it will be gone in 2 years. It really depends a lot on what you think that Ausfly is about. Is it an event for the general public or an event for the aficionados? You liken it to an overseas band visiting but I think of it more along the lines of the Deneliquin Ute muster or the Tamworth Country Music festival. These are events that people are willing to travel significant distances to attend. They are already part of the "scene" but are looking to meet up with like minded people who are also interested in what they are. Ausfly needs to work towards that goal. Sharing it between venues in practice dosent work out too well. Look at what happened to the motor show when Sydney and Melbourne tried to agree to have it on an alternating basis. If disappeared for a few years. Airshows that are already held close to the main centers like Wings over Illawarra, Avalon and the Evans Head Fly in are the types of events to market to new participants in the sport. It is vitally important that SAAA and RAAus are well represented at these events to showcase the smaller end of Aviation. 2
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Nobody , i agree its probably not a general public event, but by the same token holding it so so far west is rediculous... I dont liken it to a visiting band... I say there is a reasson visitng bands dont hold events in the outback... Becaucse every event has barriers to entry...the more barriers, the lower the participation rate... Trust me , i have studied this area in post graduaete study extensively......distance is a mental, financial and time barrier to entry for every participant... Aircraft reduce that barrier, but its still a barrier.... The other much smarter move they could make is have the airshows in the middle block of each day to allow people to leave after an airshow and yet still reach major population centers... Eg : if the event is held two hours flight from sydney, newcastle and central coast than make sure the air show finishes thre hours prior to last light at those locations Overnight accomodation has its own full list of barriers to entry inclcuding transit from airport, comfort, sleep quality, price, food etc... So where ever possible it should be avoided or turned into an experience to be cherished
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 An afternoon airshow with night time social activity then morning activity or attraction will drive participants and value
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 An afternoon airshow with night time social activity then morning activity or attraction will drive participants and value Many of the things you are asking for are exactly what happened this year. The flying display days were the Friday and the Saturday. This allowed, for instance people from Brisbane/Melbourne to leave home early Saturday morning and arrive in time for the airshow. The Airshow finished at 3:45 with aircraft able to take off about 4:00. That gave approximately 2:00 hours for a flight back to the oaks, bankstown or cessnock which most aircraft could have achieved. The Saturday night had the formal dinner and those that stuck around for it enjoyed it with the whole of the Sunday to Fly drive home. 1
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Ok, Here is the list of Airports from ERSA sorted by distance from the Sydney CBD. Are there any locations that are significantly closer that would be suitable?
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Well after spending the weekend at maitland for a flying comp , i have to say what a perfect location... More runways than LAX, close to accomodation, huge facilities, close drive to major populations of Sydney and Newc CC and good flight times to Brisbane and .GC. This would be my pick for the northern location , Then altrnate to one in the southern area... Or Cessnock i like Narromine but its a hell of a task to get there and back
robinsm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Remember we also need distances from Melbourne, perth, Brisbane etc to cater for those who have the temerity not to reside in the great Syd town...
robinsm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 How about nwe revive the home of Ultralights and have the southern one at Holbrook? The northern one was tried in Queensland a few years ago...Monto if I recollect correctly...
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Remember we also need distances from Melbourne, perth, Brisbane etc to cater for those who have the temerity not to reside in the great Syd town... Exactly, and as a comprise Narromine works well. Being inland of the ranges generally the weather is good this time of year. On the coast there is greater variability, you get nice days and then some bad weather. If the event had been held on the coast last weekend it would have been cancelled. 1
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Are you serious Perth Darwin etc should not even be considered when it comes to a national flyin... This sounds terrible and i fully understand it will inflame members in outlying areas and i appologise, but realities are realities...... They should either have there own event or none at all...you cant be all things to all people ... Those who try to be fail and fail dismally everytim unless they have huge budgets, extremely mobile participants (jet flyers with money) or inelastic demand curves. You dont hold national events in broken hill to keep westerners happy and you dont hold rock concerts in Perth as a one off on an australian tour for a reason... People who think we need to host these event severely west to cater for 10-15 % of australias population are a major part of the problem that will doom these events into history... Your first and fundamental problem is a location people will attend in abbundance...everything else is secondary. By going west you not only cater for less people you make it harder for the other 90 % who will attend to actually want to go, afford to go or time to go... Take this example... Temora. Flying time to melb and syd is reasonable...one nights accommodation to each would yield major attendance... Similarly mailtand for syd and east coast ( bad example for melb) Move event to say Naromine you have major flight time from syd, massive from Melb, brisbane newc gong and GC Brisbane sunny coast .... No matter people intentions , attendance drops ... Now narromine is clearly better for SA or WA NT, but realistacally how many actually attend.. And if it was 1 hour east would it really change attendes from Perth, or NT ...no But shift it one hour further from Syd or Melb / east coast and numbers dramatically fall....why because you add a second nights accomodation, which doubles the cost, means your away the entire weekend, need a night off work etc...that wont matter for some people, but force it on many and your numbers drop dramatically. Trust me it on this , post grad studies in this area reveal a thing or two about elasticity of demand, barriers to entry and invisible/ visible scripts to participation... you want numbers it needs to be a day trip or one nighter from the majority of your population...doing anything else dramatically effects participation.. Secondly people need a regular cycle and location...eg every year or second year at X location..... Doctors and lawyers with high disposable income and who are time poor will pay to travel to exotic and varied locations, but the majority of people like and are more likely to attend the same location on a regular cycle because they like predictability, known costs and known issues... One only has to access night sat images of Australia and its pretty clear where most events need to be held... Add in CTA and its effects on RAAus pilots, its still pretty clear which areas will work and which wont... Sorry but The rest are dreamers....if you think we should hold it on the Nullabour or in Perth, you are a very very nice considerate person, but have no concept of the laws of supply and demand , crowd dynamics, elascticity of demand or pschological scripts to attendance...
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Do you know where Narromine is? It is closer to Sydney than Temora.
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Um i just spent a weekend there, but no i forget lol
robinsm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Thats why Temora was excellent and if not for the vested political interest in the aviation community, and the couldn't give a sh..t attitude of the members would have survived. The event was brilliantly organised by Carol on the ground at Temora, but because of that the naysayers and envious faction tried to white ant all the hard work. We had a winner that required some work. Wake up people, if you want a national flyin then you have to actually do something, not leave it to the other people to do the work. No good getting all philosophical about it and quoting studies, look at the real world, roll your sleeves up and actually do something....you know...its called involvement. Dont bitch about it if you arent prepared to get your hand dirty and actually do something.
robinsm Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Do you know where Narromine is? It is closer to Sydney than Temora. Yep it is, buy about 10nm....big deal.
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I agree with that sentiment after running many events as a volunteer, but that type of thinking and decision process does not cut the mustard when your trying to organise and run an event on behalf of 10,000 members... Priority number one always needs to be location and closely linked to date. Almost everything else will evolve with work and resources if you get those two right
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Um i just spent a weekend there, but no i forget lol So why cant you grasp that wen compared to Temora it is closer to Sydney and almost exactly half way from Melbourne to Brisbane? In a big country like Oz you are not going to get a location that is more feasible for a flying weekend away from the 3 largest capitals.
SDQDI Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Do you know where Narromine is? It is closer to Sydney than Temora. As the crow flys (actually do they fly straight? Surely there is a straighter flying animal than a crow!) it is only a 4 nm difference. The location is neglible really. IMHO good weather plays a bigger part in flyin attendance than location. Temora and narromine are both good choices but as has been said if people aren't going to go and they just whine about it it will all fold up eventually. Catering a flyin event for non flying citysiders is a bit like putting on a rodeo for PETA! After all the idea of a flyin is for pilots to get together and socialise and as has already been said if you do that well then the other non flying spectators will come to see it and it will grow otherwise you will end up changing the flyin into a non flyin friendly airshow. 1
Nobody Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 As the crow flys (actually do they fly straight? Surely there is a straighter flying animal than a crow!) it is only a 4 nm difference. The location is neglible really. IMHO good weather plays a bigger part in flyin attendance than location. Temora and narromine are both good choices but as has been said if people aren't going to go and they just whine about it it will all fold up eventually. Catering a flyin event for non flying citysiders is a bit like putting on a rodeo for PETA! After all the idea of a flyin is for pilots to get together and socialise and as has already been said if you do that well then the other non flying spectators will come to see it and it will grow otherwise you will end up changing the flyin into a non flyin friendly airshow. Exactly the point I was making earlier. Unless you are within 1-2 hours drive you wont get "the general public" turning up in droves. So dont make the event about them. Make it about the pilots, the builders and the aviation buffs. Cater to their needs and interests so they turn up year after year and the event will be a great success. Not many events are able to do the phoenix and rise from the ashes. This years event had a good turn out from people who came from all over. Hopefully next year there will be a bit more catering to deal with the increase in numbers!!!! 1
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Any reference to population by me refers to our flying population... Which undoubtably has some strong correlation to population in general...as there are not many flyin ng clubs or pilots parking thier aircraft 200 km from home for fun.
DrZoos Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 So if you where CEO for a day and had to make the following decision what would you choose Decision A. Same location annually- where? B. Biannual location which two locations?
Kyle Communications Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Well after spending the weekend at maitland for a flying comp , i have to say what a perfect location... More runways than LAX, close to accomodation, huge facilities, close drive to major populations of Sydney and Newc CC and good flight times to Brisbane and .GC. This would be my pick for the northern location , Then altrnate to one in the southern area...Or Cessnock i like Narromine but its a hell of a task to get there and back Northern?....excuse me that is like not even halfway up the australian eastern coast..... the world suddenly only exists south of the Qld /NSW border its another 2000km to the top of gods own country 1
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now