Loss of Control - Now and Then.

[kaz3g]

You could, of course, find a school with a 152 Aerobat.I wonder why the Tomahawk's tail stops flying at 55 knots. Not a problem with any other T-tailed aircraft I've flown (all two only!)

It seems the airflow over the tail can be blanked by the wings when at a high angle of attack without some power applied but it needs someone smarter than me to answer authoritatively. It will also over-rotate on takeoff if the nose is raised aggressively early in the run.

 

http://www.pipertomahawk.com/Qualities.htm

 

Kaz

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I was encouraged to go up and practice solo spins, and did them with Pax, in a Victa 115. I would do them again in a ten year old Victa but can't find one!

 

 

[facthunter]

They don't make them unfortunately. They didn't get supported against the push of the big three. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Ozzie it might have twisted under the effect of applied aileron, like the Quad City Challenger. Nev

As it was never retested we will never be sure, but one could bet if it alters under one type of loading it will also change under other methods of applied loading.

Reminds me of flying (abusing) the very first TST Thrusters with the small spar tubes, struts and only half the wing ribs. anything can happen and did.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Stabilator, or stabilisor?I fly a plane with a T-tail. It's derived from a motor glider. The other common motor-glider derived plane, the Diamond DA20/40, is also T-tailed.

 

(reduces drag, and lets you take the tail apart for trailering.)

I agree,. . .nice looking aircraft,. . .doesn't change my opinion of the Piper Arrow IV though. . .!

 

And as for "Stabilator". . .one of those Americanisms,. . .mind you, they DID manufacture the aircraft in the first place ! . . . combined Horizontal stabiliser / Elevator . . . see where it came from . . . ? Lucky they didn't call it a Horistabilaterer. . .

 

 

[Ada Elle]

I agree,. . .nice looking aircraft,. . .doesn't change my opinion of the Piper Arrow IV though. . .!And as for "Stabilator". . .one of those Americanisms,. . .mind you, they DID manufacture the aircraft in the first place ! . . . combined Horizontal stabiliser / Elevator . . . see where it came from . . . ? Lucky they didn't call it a Horistabilaterer. . .

Which planes have a T-stabilator? That seems like it's just asking for it in terms of having the tail fall apart.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Nomad wasn't a T tail but did have a stabilator and it lost a few. Found a few cracks around the spar mount points in a few of Schofields Warriors.

 

Unless i was planning on traveling above the speed of sound I'd prefer to have the whole show behind me.

 

 

[djpacro]

Nomad wasn't a T tail but did have a stabilator and it lost a few.

one

[Guest ozzie]

Army lost one, (at least due to tail), one of the designers was killed in one in Melbourne and Dolphin Air in the USA lost one. I also believe one or more of those given to the Indonesians/ Malaysians/ Philippines suffered the same fate. Over 30 hull loses in total and 70 plus killed.

 

 

[djpacro]

OK, two but the factory experimental one (tab flutter) I hadn't counted in that context.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I just edited my above post after going back and researching again. Been quite a while since i had anything to do with them 1993 was the last time i worked on one. There was a huge court case over the Dolphin Air one they were contracted to the US customs in Florida. The tail improvements to the stab and vertical fin were all ready to go but held back until the court case finished and the minute it was the changes began. The army lost at least 3 maybe 4 hulls. and at least two where tail failure. and one was in 2009. The Kiwis had the best success with them probably did a heap of mods off their own bat.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

welcome to my nightmares

 

 

 

 

 

[djpacro]

Tailplane mods were not held pending the Dolphin Air case which had diddly squat to do with tailplane structure. Dolphin Air really had very little, if anything, to do with the US Customs Nomad ops. Army Nomads had nil accidents due tail failures. An Army Nomad in 2009??

 

Detailed ADF Nomad history at http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/3a18.htm

 

Comprehensive history of every Nomad at http://www.cnapg.net/nomad.htm

 

 

[facthunter]

Commercial Jets have a large pitch trim range to cover and as far as I can see most have the horizontal stab adjustable. powered electrically with manual backup usually employing a screw jack for actuation. Once trimmed the "pole" goes to the normal central position. The amount of trim on the stab is preset for the W&B and flap selection before take off. This is all pretty strong and shouldn't suffer from flutter. Some stabs "twist" when getting above M Crit to provide a "pull the nose up' effect simply by the movement of the centre of pressure. Supersonic shockwave.. Interesting eh!. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Sorry 1991 was the Army loss at Drake Northern NSW got it mixed up with the Indonesian Navy accident in 2009.

 

In 1992/3 at Bankstown myself, Berry Tipple, Peter Rose and American Dana E Hall with an ASTA rep set up to do the mods on the remaining airworthy Nomads in Oz. These included Sydney Skydivers, Aquatic Air. I repeat we were not permitted to commence until the US court case was settled.

 

Sorry but i was there.

 

 

[djpacro]

I suppose we should let people get back to the topic, happy to continue the discussion elsewhere.

 

(Who was the ASTA rep: John, Terry or Tiz? Do you know Dan Sigl? I happeneded to run into him at Oshkosh.)

 

On topic: The USA FAA mandates upset recovery training for all jet transport pilots. I see some local courses labelled upset recovery however they are really just GA extreme unusual attitude recovery exercises.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes we need to get the description right. There is a lot of difference. What would YOU call an "extreme" unusual attitude. Perhaps a "situation" might be more helpful because there is more to a problem than defining it by attitude. Nev

 

 

[Garfly]

It's a diabolical problem, that one of the things most likely to kill to us - with no second chances - stall-spin in the circuit - is just too dangerous to practise meaningfully. (Even at a safe height, it seems, given the aircraft we fly). I suppose this is akin to ditching and EFATO in twins.

 

Anyway, as Frank suggested above, it means we just have to be super vigilant in avoiding the situation in the first place. Apart from avoiding distractions in the landing phase, maybe one thing we can do is practise flying balanced instinctively (no eyes on the ball) especially low and slow.

 

But what other practical exercises can be recommended to improve one's skills and awareness (to avoid the mistakes that claimed our first WWII fatalities and continue unabated)?

 

 

[diesel]

When I was teaching pilots to fly on the wire they did a loop and a spin for every hour flown.

 

Hill lift is good.

 

One of my students with 12 hrs total time was in the slingsy dart which has a reputation for spinning well

 

had an interesting launch. Xwind to 700 feet, bunged off nose lowered and rolled left to catch a thermal.

 

All looked good but the aileron bit a and it started to rotate. Student who learned to fly in a T31 if anyone

 

knows what that is just got on with the recovery and recovered and had a soaring flight.

 

We treat power planes the same.

 

Chas.