Flight training

[Ada Elle]

I meant customs. The AIP doesn't specify which legs of the circuit need calls. I seem to remember base calls being the common calls, but JB's tutorials suggest making a final call.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

They kinda do.The CAR has a MUST requirement:

 

The AIP has a SHOULD requirement:

 

at uncertified aerodromes (which includes many of the ones that we fly out of), the AIP has a 'this would be a good idea' sentence:

 

However, in busy CTAF areas, the ERSA may say something like this (for YCNK, for example):

 

I always broadcast inbound, joining, and base, which are the three semi-mandatory calls. At some aerodromes which are busy but not super busy, will also broadcast downwind and final (helps people look for you and remind you that you are there) but this is guided by local procedure (eg when I did a lesson at Bathurst they were very keen on downwind and final).

There in lies the problem. Your interpretation is different to mine and I bet to a lot of other pilots as well. A couple of those semi-mandatory calls are actually mandatory if you practice good airmanship and collision avoidance.

 

All the airstrips I fly in and out of are non towered and the widely varying radio calls seem to indicate that there is mass confusion out there as to what is required. I haven't come across any yet with quaint local customs, I have however had to comply with regulations, procedures and rules

 

 

[Ada Elle]

There in lies the problem. Your interpretation is different to mine and I bet to a lot of other pilots as well. A couple of those semi-mandatory calls are actually mandatory if you practice good airmanship and collision avoidance.All the airstrips I fly in and out of are non towered and the widely varying radio calls seem to indicate that there is mass confusion out there as to what is required. I haven't come across any yet with quaint local customs, I have however had to comply with regulations, procedures and rules

I've quoted the rules. The rules say that nothing is mandatory except to avoid collisions.

 

SHOULD is not MUST.

 

There is no requirement to do downwind, base, or final calls (in the circuit). I think good airmanship dictates that you at least one of them, and I do the downwind->base turn call.

 

What do you think the rules say?

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I here

 

I've quoted the rules. The rules say that nothing is mandatory except to avoid collisions. SHOULD is not MUST.

 

There is no requirement to do downwind, base, or final calls (in the circuit). I think good airmanship dictates that you at least one of them, and I do the downwind->base turn call.

 

What do you think the rules say?[/quote

 

I hear where your coming from but don't agree. Are you saying that as a matter of course you yourself make no 10 mile inbound, no straight in approach and no joining call unless you hear other traffic in the C TAF.

 

Good luck with that. I trust you look up from your manuals long enough to practice see and avoid.

[ev17ifly2]

I've quoted the rules. The rules say that nothing is mandatory except to avoid collisions. SHOULD is not MUST.

 

There is no requirement to do downwind, base, or final calls (in the circuit). I think good airmanship dictates that you at least one of them, and I do the downwind->base turn call.

 

What do you think the rules say?

So then what you are telling me is that you give no 10 mile inbound, no straight in approach or no joining call unless you hear other traffic in the CTAF.

 

Good luck with that. I trust you look up from your manuals long enough to to apply see and avoid.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

So then what you are telling me is that you give no 10 mile inbound, no straight in approach or no joining call unless you hear other traffic in the CTAF.Good luck with that. I trust you look up from your manuals long enough to to apply see and avoid.

I did say I always give inbound, joining, and base, didn't I? I called them semi-mandatory; they are SHOULD, not MUST calls.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I did say I always give inbound, joining, and base, didn't I? I called them semi-mandatory; they are SHOULD, not MUST calls.

I understand now, I just hope going forward that we don't end up having to share the same airspace.

 

Stay safe and keep swatting up on those rules and regs.

 

 

[poteroo]

Steady on people! CASA, as is their wont, invariably make things more complex than need be. In the real world, use some common sense.

 

A 10nm call, plus a 'joining leg' of circuit call with intentions is the minimum you should be using. You might call on base or final if you hear more traffic taxying. You would call 'clear of runway' when there is other traffic in the circuit.

 

Use your radio sensibly, and avoid rabbiting on that you are 5nm, 3nm,then every leg of the circuit - plus ask everyone else for their position when you should have been listening instead of transmitting.

 

With 'straight in' approaches - be damned certain you know the wind or a nasty surprise may await you. And, don't ask other traffic what the 'duty runway' is - there's no such thing. Add the 'straight-in' intention to your 10nm call and only make a 3nm call by which distance you'll be slowing for approach and can see if you'll fit in between other traffic (you don't have right of way over base and final traffic no matter how much you call).

 

For departures - decide on the most expeditious runway/strip for departure so as to avoid a runway backtrack to the furthest end of the airport. Call taxying for....' ' plus your intended runway/strip. Keep off strips or runways until you are ready to go. Call when you enter a strip/runway with intentions. You really don't need any further calls. Less is more!

 

If RAAus aircraft want to mix it with GA and RPT - then our radio work has to be up to a standard. happy days,

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

Steady on people! CASA, as is their wont, invariably make things more complex than need be. In the real world, use some common sense.A 10nm call, plus a 'joining leg' of circuit call with intentions is the minimum you should be using. You might call on base or final if you hear more traffic taxying. You would call 'clear of runway' when there is other traffic in the circuit.

Use your radio sensibly, and avoid rabbiting on that you are 5nm, 3nm,then every leg of the circuit - plus ask everyone else for their position when you should have been listening instead of transmitting.

 

With 'straight in' approaches - be damned certain you know the wind or a nasty surprise may await you. And, don't ask other traffic what the 'duty runway' is - there's no such thing. Add the 'straight-in' intention to your 10nm call and only make a 3nm call by which distance you'll be slowing for approach and can see if you'll fit in between other traffic (you don't have right of way over base and final traffic no matter how much you call).

 

For departures - decide on the most expeditious runway/strip for departure so as to avoid a runway backtrack to the furthest end of the airport. Call taxying for....' ' plus your intended runway/strip. Keep off strips or runways until you are ready to go. Call when you enter a strip/runway with intentions. You really don't need any further calls. Less is more!

 

If RAAus aircraft want to mix it with GA and RPT - then our radio work has to be up to a standard. happy days,

Bloody fantastic ! Great post. Ada Elle take note.

 

 

[barramundi]

WOW this was probably one of the more interesting welcoming threads I'v read lol thanks guys/gals! welcome sean... I fly once a month and it helps me a lot in that I get a lot of theory done...maybe too much theory... anyways I wish you well and my only 2 cents for flight simming is tread carefully! how you approach it and use can either be determinate and this is only from MY PERSONAL experience.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

For departures - decide on the most expeditious runway/strip for departure so as to avoid a runway backtrack to the furthest end of the airport.

I would rather choose the most into-wind runway, or the longest runway if the crosswind component is sufficiently low.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I would rather choose the most into-wind runway, or the longest runway if the crosswind component is sufficiently low.

Is your instructor out of therapy yet ?

 

 

[Roundsounds]

It might be time for some of you people to review CAR 166C and CAAP 166-1(3).

 

In my experience there's way too many uneccessary calls being made on CTAF frequencies. The clear of runway and downwind calls being good examples, I put these down to GAAP/ClassD habits.

 

The CAAP 166-1 recommended calls being:

 

- taxying

 

- entering runway

 

- inbound

 

- joining circuit

 

- straight in approach

 

- any time there is an imminent collision risk

 

Keep a good lookout, just cause you don't hear another aircraft on the wireless doesn't mean there aren't any in the circuit with you!

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

It might be time for some of you people to review CAR 166C and CAAP 166-1(3).In my experience there's way too many uneccessary calls being made on CTAF frequencies. The clear of runway and downwind calls being good examples, I put these down to GAAP/ClassD habits.

The CAAP 166-1 recommended calls being:

 

- taxying

 

- entering runway

 

- inbound

 

- joining circuit

 

- straight in approach

 

- any time there is an imminent collision risk

 

Keep a good lookout, just cause you don't hear another aircraft on the wireless doesn't mean there aren't any in the circuit with you!

All most right. According to CASA there are 7 situations where you are expected to broadcast your intentions to make sure you comply with the MINIMUM requirements of CAR166C

 

1 before, or during taxiing

 

2 immediately before entering a runway

 

3 inbound 10nm or earlier from aerodrome

 

4 immediately before joining circuit

 

5 on a straight-in approach, on final,by 3nm from threshold

 

6 on a base join approach, before joining base and

 

7 on entering the aerodrome vicinity of a non towered aerodrome, where you intend to fly through the vicinity but not land

 

 

[2tonne]

The inbound 10nm or earlier call doesn't apply when two CTAFs are located close together, such as with Redcliffe and Caboolture. In that case the accepted procedure is to make an inbound call at Beachmere which is roughly half way between the two airfields (~4.5 nm).

 

 

[Butch]

In my experience there's way too many uneccessary calls being made on CTAF frequencies. The clear of runway and downwind calls being good examples,

Hi Roundsounds

At times at the airfield I fly out of there maybe 3 even 5 aircraft practicing circuits and touch and go's. Some are experienced pilots doing tight circuits in faster aircraft others are low hour pilots doing wider circuits and usually a bit slower.

 

I know you don't want pilots rabbiting on in the circuit area but I find it helpful when aircraft call downwind , base and final with intensions (full stop or touch and go).

 

Its not always easy to keep visual with 3 or more aircraft at different speeds at the same time, as well if you're close behind an aircraft turning on final its good to know if they are going to full stop so you can give them time to back track if they need it.

 

WE have had more trouble with aircraft entering the circuit with too few calls ( confusing the other traffic ) than we have with pilots making to many calls.

 

I only fly from regional airports , things may be different at busy city airports with heavy traffic,

 

cheers Butch

 

 

[Robbo]

Do you have any radio Calls I can practice for example?

You should buy youself an airband scanner and then you can listen to the aircraft chatter from your local airport and learn what you need to say, you may also be interested in www.liveatc.net for heaps of worldwide airport scanner feeds.

 

 

[Aldo]

The best practice is to make the required calls and any additional calls as is necessary to ensure traffic separation. A good example of what may be deemed unnecessary by some is my calls departing Toowoomba, YTWB can be quite busy and this is exacerbated by the surrounding airspace (Oakey and Amberly) and Wellcamp airport funnelling traffic through a rather small corridor when departing or arriving from the west as well as aircraft returning from the training area to the south mad joining crosswind.

 

ABC enters and rolls runway 11 for a left turn and overhead departure then tracking to intercept 274 for Lugdo. Departure call is then ABC departed overhead time 20 tracking to intercept 274 climbing to 6500 passing 3600, Lugdo at 26. This allows all aircraft to know my exact intentions.

 

Aldo

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

The best practice is to make the required calls and any additional calls as is necessary to ensure traffic separation. A good example of what may be deemed unnecessary by some is my calls departing Toowoomba, YTWB can be quite busy and this is exacerbated by the surrounding airspace (Oakey and Amberly) and Wellcamp airport funnelling traffic through a rather small corridor when departing or arriving from the west as well as aircraft returning from the training area to the south mad joining crosswind.ABC enters and rolls runway 11 for a left turn and overhead departure then tracking to intercept 274 for Lugdo. Departure call is then ABC departed overhead time 20 tracking to intercept 274 climbing to 6500 passing 3600, Lugdo at 26. This allows all aircraft to know my exact intentions.

 

Aldo

This case in questions just serves to highlight the overuse of radio

 

 

[Aldo]

This case in questions just serves to highlight the overuse of radio

I don't agree I would rather know what people are intending to do so I know where I can expect them to be. A lot of people flying don't know where they are a lot of the time and I fly every day so I see plenty of examples.

 

Aldo

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I don't agree I would rather know what people are intending to do so I know where I can expect them to be. A lot of people flying don't know where they are a lot of the time and I fly every day so I see plenty of examples.Aldo

For example. As far as I can see YTWB has standard left hand circuits so letting me know that you will be turning left serves no purpose nor does giving me your time And just tracking Lugdo or bearing is sufficient.

 

From what you said the airspace is often busy therefore you are only adding to the chatter.

 

 

[Aldo]

For example. As far as I can see YTWB has standard left hand circuits so letting me know that you will be turning left serves no purpose nor does giving me your time And just tracking Lugdo or bearing is sufficient.From what you said the airspace is often busy therefore you are only adding to the chatter.

Rolling pretty much gives you a time, you are able to depart YTWB either straight out, right turn at 500 feet for the training area or normal left turn to depart north or west there are times when a right turn for a western departure is acceptable due to traffic inbound from the west. It is all about listening to the radio calls people make, that's what makes CTAF operations safe.

 

Aldo

 

 

[robinsm]

I would make any, and all, calls that you feel keep you safe and others aware of your presence/intentions. If they say you make too many, tell therm your life is worth more than their opinions..

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I would make any, and all, calls that you feel keep you safe and others aware of your presence/intentions. If they say you make too many, tell therm your life is worth more than their opinions..

Too much radio is just as bad as too little. Just listening to 126.7 on the weekends shows non stop over use of the radio. To me it appears the less hours a person does per year the more they feel they need to talk on the radio.

 

 

[Robbo]

aviate, navigate and communicate........