Flight training

[robinsm]

Sorry Happyflyer, disagree totally, I want people to know where I am and what I am doing. Then the excuse "We didnt know" doesnt apply. I prefer to live, not go out in the front of another aircraft silently. I have paused before entering and using the active runway at my local airport and more than once have seen an aircraft on short final without them making any calls. Sorry mate, I like living and if that means I p..ss someone off because I make to many calls then so be it.

 

 

[SDQDI]

It is all about getting a good balance, Happyflyer is right when saying too much is as bad as too little.

 

There is nothing worse than not being able to make a necessary call because someone in the circuit is making their umpteenth call. Remember at most places we (well where I fly anyway) fly radios are NOT mandatory and we should expect people to be flying without them, so by all means make enough calls to let people know where you are but don't overdo it to the extent that others can't get a word in and definately don't expect everyone to be using the radio.

 

 

[Robbo]

While we are on the topic of radio use I am bewildered on how some students pass there english language requirements!

 

There are countless of times I have heard students make radio calls and I along with atc could not understand one word of there transmission and after asking them to repeat it numerous times atc is forced to ask the instructor to make the call, if there solo well you simply have to ask atc to keep you out of there way!

 

What a load of bulls!t,Commercial airlines use flight Sims to train and practice all forms of flight simulation.

Yes and they are full motion and are worth millions compared to a few thousand for a decent home pc. I was in the A330 sim a couple of weeks back and even though the cockpit is a replica and the scenery is of "low" qaulity the control movements and instrumentation are near exact to the real thing.

 

They gave me an engine failure, bird strike, severe turbulence and just to make it interesting a severe overspeed with the stick shaker going crazy, I tell you if I did not have the seat belt on I would have been thrown through the Screens.

 

These commercial sims are all CASA and FAA approved and there not just a home computer with a saitek yoke that has no feeling at all.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Sorry Happyflyer, disagree totally, I want people to know where I am and what I am doing. Then the excuse "We didnt know" doesnt apply. I prefer to live, not go out in the front of another aircraft silently. I have paused before entering and using the active runway at my local airport and more than once have seen an aircraft on short final without them making any calls. Sorry mate, I like living and if that means I p..ss someone off because I make to many calls then so be it.

You should never be surprised to see an aircraft on short final before you enter the runway, you should have been aware of it well beforehand. Listen to the radio while doing engine runs and taxiing, look at downwind, base and final while taxiing (situational awareness). Look again before making entering runway call. Never assume no radio means no plane and never assume others have heard your call.

For all I know you and I may make exactly the same calls. Some examples of what I consider to be unnecessary calls are:

 

Making inbound calls at 10, 5 and 2 miles. Wanting to know duty runway after I have called "downwind 23, touch and go". Telling me I am at his three o'clock!. Calling every turn of the cct when no one else is in the cct. Calling every turn in the cct when four other aircraft are in the cct. Saying " Traffic Heck Field and Jabiru 1234" as if Jabiru 1234 isn't addressed by " traffic Heck Field". Saying "joining crosswind 23, traffic on final sighted" Why? Giving full departure calls on taxi, rolling and overhead. Wanting to establish two way communication, just make minimum necessary calls and keep your eyes and ears open. Contrary to what some seem to think, stating your intention does not give you right of way. Some of the most dangerous calls are made by those that give the wrong direction for departure or inbound and people only expect them from that direction.

 

There! I've got that off my chest!

 

 

[robinsm]

If you read the post you would have realised that NO radio calls were made or received from many of the offending aircraft. You are assuming that they make their calls. Obviously if everyone knows where everyone is then no problems. A turning base call and a turning final call makes it fairly clear where they are, but if they are worried about making too many calls and dont make them then I rest my case. Yes, the radio is listened to at all times when in the aircraft and those aircraft that actually make calls can be placed in the area in your mind. Those that dont cant be placed or seen. I agree witrh your statement and in an ideal world that is correct but we are talking about the type and volume of radio calls for training and safety. Call, be heard and be damned to the naysayers.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I would make any, and all, calls that you feel keep you safe and others aware of your presence/intentions. If they say you make too many, tell therm your life is worth more than their opinions..

Feel free to broadcast whatever makes YOU feel safe in the air, however that may only be a state of mind because if other pilots can't decipher where you are and what your intentions are, alIl that extraneous info may not keep you safe.

 

 

[robinsm]

Clear, Concise and Correct........does that help?

 

 

[Butch]

These commercial sims are all CASA and FAA approved and there not just a home computer with a saitek yoke that has no feeling at all

Robbo,

 

I made my comment about using flight Sims to practice with in the pretext that Sean who started this thread has ZERO hours in any aircraft.

 

He's not going to give two hoots about flying a realistic A330 simulator, my point was he needs to familiarize with cockpit layout and controls of the aircraft he is having instruction in.

 

I think it is an enjoyable way to get your head around some of the basics skills in learning to pilot an aircraft . Sure you need realism if you are a heavy commercial pilot but for a novice pilot I think they do no harm, and like all things in life use it in moderation!

 

 

[Pearo]

I was a simmer before I started flying, have yokes, rudder pedals, quadrants etc. It was detrimental to my learning because I kept looking at the instruments. In fact, it was so bad that I even obtained my RPL with these bad habbits. It was not until I started my PPL navs that I actually realised how bad it was. I know now. I packed up all my sim gear about 4 lessons in, and its still packed away (until I complete my PPL and start my IFR training!)

 

If you want to learn cockpit layout, go sit in the actuall aircraft outside of you training sessions. They dont charge you to sit in the aircraft on the ground and its far more effective. I would have spend hours on the ground running through checklists, doing my FMOST checks for forced landings etc. Honestly, its the best way to do it.

 

 

[Butch]

I was a simmer before I started flying, have yokes, rudder pedals, quadrants etc. It was detrimental to my learning because I kept looking at the instruments. In fact, it was so bad that I even obtained my RPL with these bad habbits. It was not until I started my PPL navs that I actually realised how bad it was. I know now. I packed up all my sim gear about 4 lessons in, and its still packed away (until I complete my PPL and start my IFR training!)If you want to learn cockpit layout, go sit in the actuall aircraft outside of you training sessions. They dont charge you to sit in the aircraft on the ground and its far more effective. I would have spend hours on the ground running through checklists, doing my FMOST checks for forced landings etc. Honestly, its the best way to do it.

Everyone's different, I was the exact opposite , on my very first TIF flight I felt like a duck in water, sure after many lessons I felt no need to practice on a Sim and rarely use it now,

 

Lets call it a draw! and let Sean decide for himself.

 

cheers Butch

 

 

[kaz3g]

It is all about getting a good balance, Happyflyer is right when saying too much is as bad as too little.There is nothing worse than not being able to make a necessary call because someone in the circuit is making their umpteenth call. Remember at most places we (well where I fly anyway) fly radios are NOT mandatory and we should expect people to be flying without them, so by all means make enough calls to let people know where you are but don't overdo it to the extent that others can't get a word in and definately don't expect everyone to be using the radio.

All true, but if you have a radio you must use it as safety requires.

 

I generally call 10 miles, joining and each leg. But if there are few around the circuit I keep the leg calls brief.

 

"Shepparton BYM base 18"...not "Shepparton Traffic Auster BYM turning base 18 Shepparton traffic". In my view, it's important to let people know where I am especially as my circuits are very tight (most GA schools seem to teach Jumbo circuits) and my speed on base and final is 55 knots reducing to 45 knots which can catch out the unwary.

 

And I agree with Robinsm that my calls are what I am comfortable with for my safety...not what someone else thinks they ought to be.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Garfly]

Regarding problematic radio comms at busy uncontrolled fields this video from 'FlightChops' (USA) is educational:

 

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Rolling pretty much gives you a time, you are able to depart YTWB either straight out, right turn at 500 feet for the training area or normal left turn to depart north or west there are times when a right turn for a western departure is acceptable due to traffic inbound from the west. It is all about listening to the radio calls people make, that's what makes CTAF operations safe.

I'm not too sure about the right turn at 500' being acceptable?

Try reading CAR166A or AIP ENR 1.1-71 para 43.1. Basically it says you must depart by extending a leg of the circuit, if turning opposite the normal circuit direction you should be 3 miles from the departure end of the runway. CAAP 166-1 is worth reading, it also spells this out and the recommended radio procedures for non-controlled aerodromes.

 

 

[DrZoos]

oMG that take off is crazy

 

 

[Roundsounds]

At times at the airfield I fly out of there maybe 3 even 5 aircraft practicing circuits and touch and go's. Some are experienced pilots doing tight circuits in faster aircraft others are low hour pilots doing wider circuits and usually a bit slower.I know you don't want pilots rabbiting on in the circuit area but I find it helpful when aircraft call downwind , base and final with intensions (full stop or touch and go).

To put this into perspective, 5 aircraft doing circuits (average 6 minutes per circuit) all giving 3 calls per circuit at say 7 seconds per call. 360 seconds of radio time to accomodate 15 calls totalling 105 seconds. This leaves 17 seconds between calls to allow taxying, inbound, joining and overfly calls. A base call is all that is needed when flying circuits, it's up to pilots to maintain situational awareness (mental picture of traffic) and to not become reliant on radio calls to keep tabs on traffic. Downwind calls came into effect when GAAP were developed, as the call suited ATC for sequencing purposes. The old Secondary Airport procedures had traffic making base calls, which worked well. (Secondary Airport procedures were in effect before GAAP / Class D)

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Regarding problematic radio comms at busy uncontrolled fields this video from 'FlightChops' (USA) is educational:

A few observations made watching the video:

- Too many distracting gadgets (iPad, ADSB receiver on glare shield, knee pad)

 

- Knee pad limited control wheel movement, not good if landing with a right crosswind.

 

- Checklist used as do list (do checks from memory, then use the checklist to make sure you didn't miss anything, which why they're called "check" lists)

 

- Too much chatter between pilots, which led to missing aircraft on RWY 27 calls.

 

- Aircraft on final 27 didn't respond to the line-up call of aircraft entering 32

 

So much for radio calls preventing traffic conflicts, lots and lots of talking but the good old lookout saved the day!

 

 

[Pearo]

That first flightchops video is like Caloundra (YCDR).

 

A few observations made watching the video:- Too many distracting gadgets (iPad, ADSB receiver on glare shield, knee pad)

- Knee pad limited control wheel movement, not good if landing with a right crosswind.

 

- Checklist used as do list (do checks from memory, then use the checklist to make sure you didn't miss anything, which why they're called "check" lists)

 

- Too much chatter between pilots, which led to missing aircraft on RWY 27 calls.

 

- Aircraft on final 27 didn't respond to the line-up call of aircraft entering 32

 

So much for radio calls preventing traffic conflicts, lots and lots of talking but the good old lookout saved the day!

I am interested in your observations.

 

To many distracting gadgets - I have an iPad as a backup, dont use it for flying at this point because I am not allowed to, but rest assured it will be my primary tool for navigation once I have my PPL (just as it is my primary nav tool when sailing).

 

Knee pad limited control - I use an A4 clipboard folder for nav and fuel logs at this point, will probably switch to a5 with experience. When flying on my RPL privileges I use an A5 kneeboard, it does not limit control, that is why we check controls before takeoff.

 

Checklist - My instructors taught me to do it form memory - I fly once a week, not daily like them, so I use checklists. If I use the checklist, I don't forget anything.

 

Too much chatter between pilots - I think that was covered off in the video, and what is most important is that the PIC made the correct decisions.

 

I have learned a great deal from flight chops videos. He always makes a point of saying he is not an instructor, just a ppl, but he hands over so much useful information that most people are scared to admit too. He often posts up stuff that shows his errors, and I applaud that.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Base call helps with self-sequencing because it is about the same length around as the 3nm straight in final call. although, if someone calls 3mile final just as you're about to turn base, do you call base and cut in (with the circuits I fly, base+final is less than 3nm) as per your right of way, or do you extend downwind to follow the straightin?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Base call helps with self-sequencing because it is about the same length around as the 3nm straight in final call. although, if someone calls 3mile final just as you're about to turn base, do you call base and cut in (with the circuits I fly, base+final is less than 3nm) as per your right of way, or do you extend downwind to follow the straightin?

IMHO there isn't really a firm answer for that as basic airmanship will have a few options depending on a few different factors.

For example if I was at a nice rural airport and the only one in the circuit and the inbound 3nm was the air ambulance or a Qlink then I would maintain downwind and follow them in. (I made a Qlink do a wide circuit join once at Dubbo, I was joining crosswind as they were at 25 nm. I was well clear of the runway before they would have got there but they played it safe (as is proper), in hindsight I had no rush and could have made it easier for them by flying a larger circuit and following them in and I felt bad about it afterwards.)

 

But if I wasn't the only one in the circuit and the inbound was a thruster (nothing against thrusters, actually we have a local thruster flyer in our club, Just using it for an example!) I'd turn base and fly the circuit as normal obviously maintaining a visual lookout (as well as radio of course) to ensure that he was either going to slot in behind or join more appropriately and not collect me as I turn final. After all right of way rules are there for a reason but if a collision happens you will have some questions to answer (assuming you live!).

 

 

[Camel]

Base call helps with self-sequencing because it is about the same length around as the 3nm straight in final call. although, if someone calls 3mile final just as you're about to turn base, do you call base and cut in (with the circuits I fly, base+final is less than 3nm) as per your right of way, or do you extend downwind to follow the straightin?

You should know the rules ! The straight in approach rule is clear about straight in intention and calling and not disrupting circuit traffic look it up ! I always let RPT have right of way as a courtesy not to let them get pissed with ultralights, it's called airmanship ! Existing circuit traffic has right of way and straight in approach must only do if possible and not disrupt circuit traffic !

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Knee pad limited control - I use an A4 clipboard folder for nav and fuel logs at this point, will probably switch to a5 with experience. When flying on my RPL privileges I use an A5 kneeboard, it does not limit control, that is why we check controls before takeoff.

I also use a kneepad when on cross country flights, but always remove it for takeoff and landing. If you review the video at 6:42 you'll see what I mean. He can use full right aileron, provided the control column is full forward. I'm not criticising the guy, just pointing out traps. Control checks include "full and free movement, correct response"

With regards to do lists, by all means use them but you should go back and run the check list. I've seen numerous events where critical a item in a procedure was missed as the line was jumped, by going back through the same list when you think it's complete, you will reduce the chances of an error. I use a pneumonic for my before takeoff checks, followed by the written checklist.

 

 

[Butch]

To put this into perspective, 5 aircraft doing circuits (average 6 minutes per circuit) all giving 3 calls per circuit at say 7 seconds per call. 360 seconds of radio time to accomodate 15 calls totalling 105 seconds. This leaves 17 seconds between calls to allow taxying, inbound, joining and overfly calls. A base call is all that is needed when flying circuits, it's up to pilots to maintain situational awareness (mental picture of traffic) and to not become reliant on radio calls to keep tabs on traffic. Downwind calls came into effect when GAAP were developed, as the call suited ATC for sequencing purposes. The old Secondary Airport procedures had traffic making base calls, which worked well. (Secondary Airport procedures were in effect before GAAP / Class D)

We can all play with numbers!

 

You can rephrase and say no aircraft should use more than 7 seconds or 2% of a 6 minute circuit to inform other aircraft of there position (base) leaving 98% of frequency time free for other aircraft.

 

Or for just 4% more you can make 2 more extra calls informing aircraft of your position and intensions at all times in the circuit still leaving 94% of the frequency free.

 

Even 5 aircraft in a circuit making 3 calls each only uses less than 30% of available time in a circuit leaving 70% of the time for taxying, inbound, joining and overfly calls.

 

I'm only a low hours pilot but to me every clue helps.... wether it's visual ,radio or anything else, I just try to stay safe.

 

Maybe I am naïve but I still like to hear full circuit calls.

 

If I was inbound joining a circuit with 5 aircraft in it at an average of 72 seconds separation I like all the info I can get.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I'm only a low hours pilot but to me every clue helps.... wether it's visual ,radio or anything else, I just try to stay safe.Maybe I am naïve but I still like to hear full circuit calls.

If I was inbound joining a circuit with 5 aircraft in it at an average of 72 seconds separation I like all the info I can get.

I was recently doing some training with a gentleman in his newly acquired aeroplane at Cessnock, the local school there obviously teaches the 3 calls per circuit method and don't teach them to wait until no one else is transmitting. There were 4 of us in the circuit, when we were overtaken by a Piper Navajo on downwind. After we landed the Navajo pilot came over and apologised for not calling his circuit entry, as he was unable to due RT congestion. Interestingly the ERSA recommends only base calls at Cessnock for this very reason.

I've been flying for 40 years and find the trend in increased RT in the circuit area distracting, unnecessary and dangerous. The constant chatter eventually becomes white noise and if there is an urgent need to use the radio you can't.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I was recently doing some training with a gentleman in his newly acquired aeroplane at Cessnock, the local school there obviously teaches the 3 calls per circuit method and don't teach them to wait until no one else is transmitting. There were 4 of us in the circuit, when we were overtaken by a Piper Navajo on downwind. After we landed the Navajo pilot came over and apologised for not calling his circuit entry, as he was unable to due RT congestion. Interestingly the ERSA recommends only base calls at Cessnock for this very reason.I've been flying for 40 years and find the trend in increased RT in the circuit area distracting, unnecessary and dangerous. The constant chatter eventually becomes white noise and if there is an urgent need to use the radio you can't.

Couldn't agree more. Pilots feeling the need to make every call to make themselves feel safer and doing the opposite for every one else. Look out side!

 

 

[Butch]

Couldn't agree more. Pilots feeling the need to make every call to make themselves feel safer and doing the opposite for every one else. Look out side!

My eyesight is 20/20 and I look outside, I think any pilot that can retain the position of 5 other aircraft by sight in a circuit is a lot smarter than me or just over confident of their abilities. It reminds me of the old guys that drive down the road that don't use their blinkers because everyone behind me knows what I'm doing!