Flight training

[dazza 38]

I fly during the week at a quiet airfield. I give a mid down call and a base call and thats it. ( unless there is a need for more ).

 

 

[Butch]

I was recently doing some training with a gentleman in his newly acquired aeroplane at Cessnock, the local school there obviously teaches the 3 calls per circuit method and don't teach them to wait until no one else is transmitting.

This is another issue, airmanship politeness belongs to the pilot making a call, not how many calls are used in the local CTAF.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I thnk we are about close to as busy as a non towered radio gets at Port Macquarie.

 

congestion at around 10-12 am at times is a real issue, especially with GA students struggling to find the right words and making 3 calls per circuit.

 

From my personal perspective Base is by far the most important. But i do find turning downwind very helpful for timing runway or circuit entry when its extremely busy.

 

Much shorter calls would definitely help...guys doing multiple circuits making full calls 3 per circuit is a potential killer...

 

The turning downwind call really helps for joining the circuit safely when it gets busy...i dont really need to know who you are, just that your there. A simple, Port turning downwind 21 . I generally already know who you are from your rolling or base call.

 

I have good glasses for up short and excellent distance vision and when theres five plus in the circuit your a magician or thousand times better pilot than most if you can visually spot them all, everytime.. Some days its easy, other times its near i possible with white planes and cloudy, haze and glare.

 

To me the person more dangerous than a radio hog is a non user.

 

 

[Guest gannett]

How far out and what height, when you join the circuit, cross, downwind, base ,final, whatever is applicable, straight in is just plain arrogant.

 

Call even if you think no one is a about its good practice.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

My eyesight is 20/20 and I look outside, I think any pilot that can retain the position of 5 other aircraft by sight in a circuit is a lot smarter than me or just over confident of their abilities. It reminds me of the old guys that drive down the road that don't use their blinkers because everyone behind me knows what I'm doing!

It's not only about keeping traffic in sight, it's about situational awareness which pilots are trying to replace with constant radio chatter.

 

 

[Guest gannett]

Totally agree but you can only achieve situational awareness by correct calls and nothing extra added apart from not sighted calls.

 

 

[Butch]

It's not only about keeping traffic in sight, it's about situational awareness which pilots are trying to replace with constant radio chatter.

Ok so you make a mental picture of 5 aircraft in a circuit with no relevant radio calls of their position.......GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

 

 

[Guest gannett]

I wouldn't enter a circuit with five aeroplanes in the circuit except in controlled airspace

 

 

[Butch]

It's not only about keeping traffic in sight, it's about situational awareness which pilots are trying to replace with constant radio chatter.

Please explain situational awareness ?

 

How can you have it if other pilots don't communicate with you by radio calls and you can't see them visually!

 

Maybe when I did my training they didn't teach me mind reading so I knew what other pilots in the circuit were doing !

 

 

[Butch]

I wouldn't enter a circuit with five aeroplanes in the circuit except in controlled airspace

How would you know there were 5 aircraft in the circuit if they didn't make relevant circuit calls ?

 

 

[DrZoos]

To me the person more dangerous than a radio hog is a non user.

 

I wouldn't enter a circuit with five aeroplanes in the circuit except in controlled airspace

Than you better start asking for a higher MTOW before you try to land anywhere thats training the OS pilots...they start in waves and when they are doing circuits its chaos....you might be orbiting for two hours if you arrive at the wrong time...

 

When its only 5 and no RPT's as well occasionally it seems calm.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Please explain situational awareness ? How can you have it if other pilots don't communicate with you by radio calls and you can't see them visually!Maybe when I did my training they didn't teach me mind reading so I knew what other pilots in the circuit were doing !

To begin with I'm merely trying to pass on my experience of many years of safe flying including private, charter and flight training and testing. I think your tone is inappropriate.

Situational awareness in terms of circuit traffic does not require any more than base calls. You use this information to form a mental picture of the circuit traffic, which is then confirmed by visual sightings. To a certain extent a busy circuit is easier, as you simply maintain visual contact with the aircraft ahead.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Ok so you make a mental picture of 5 aircraft in a circuit with no relevant radio calls of their position.......GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

You must've misread my comment then, I suggested a base call was all that's needed as a standard call and routine downwind and final calls are not necessary.

 

 

[dutchroll]

5 in the circuit is fairly busy and to be honest I personally wouldn't taxi out intending to stay there and make myself #6 only because it's going to be a PITA.

 

However if you're arriving, you are meant to be listening on the common freq some time before you get there and if everyone just makes one standard circuit call you should have a pretty decent picture of who is there and where they are, so you can go about identifying them.

 

In the military we were taught from day 1 to visually identify all circuit traffic before joining it. It didn't matter much what their callsign was - just where they were. Anything less than that would result in an unpleasant debrief. Flying up the dead side before joining on crosswind allowed you time to spot everyone as you flew past the field if you hadn't got them on the way in, and to slot into an appropriate gap.

 

 

[Butch]

To begin with I'm merely trying to pass on my experience of many years of safe flying including private, charter and flight training and testing. I think your tone is inappropriate

Apologies Roundsounds,

 

You are obviously a very experienced pilot, it's just seems that there's two schools of thinking. In our area the majority of pilots make three call per circuit and instructors teach it, to you it's all second nature, to us not so experienced pilots it doesn't piece together quite as easy ,

 

cheers Butch

 

 

[Ada Elle]

You should know the rules ! The straight in approach rule is clear about straight in intention and calling and not disrupting circuit traffic look it up ! I always let RPT have right of way as a courtesy not to let them get pissed with ultralights, it's called airmanship ! Existing circuit traffic has right of way and straight in approach must only do if possible and not disrupt circuit traffic !

What rule do I apparently not know?

 

(I do straight ins if the AFRU answers, the ATIS tells me that I have favourable winds from my approach direction, and nobody else calls before my 3 mile final).

 

 

[facthunter]

You need to identify. Type of plane.( Unless they are all the same. Not likely). Identify and follow is the idea. You won't do it by reading callsign on the side Also gives an idea of performance of the aircraft. Eg Thruster turning '' (Different to Navajo.). Calling base with intentions is important. (my opinion). Adapt to circuit traffic density, talk slow and be brief in content but clear.. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

As nev said "adapt to circuit traffic density"..This is the key thing not being taught and possibly whats causing the conflict of opinions here...

 

Sometimes it makes perfect sense to make one call, others times to make a full CTA type call pattern and at others, just shut the hell up and say bare minimums so someone can get a word in who really needs to!

 

It amazes me when we have 5 in the circuit and 2 RPT's inbound within 30 nm at high speed and we have some moron making a 30 second taxiing call with runups still to follow..do they not think

 

 

[Roundsounds]

As nev said "adapt to circuit traffic density"..This is the key thing not being taught and possibly whats causing the conflict of opinions here...Sometimes it makes perfect sense to make one call, others times to make a full CTA type call pattern and at others, just shut the hell up and say bare minimums so someone can get a word in who really needs to!

It amazes me when we have 5 in the circuit and 2 RPT's inbound within 30 nm at high speed and we have some moron making a 30 second taxiing call with runups still to follow..do they not think

I suspect with the loss of country (NCTL) based flying schools most pilot and instructor training is being conducted at Class D aerodromes. These newly trained pilots and instructors then move to country areas and lose their security blanket (ATS) and feel they need to talk a lot routinely, instructors then pass this onto their students. RAA pilots hear the charter / training flights make their routine 6 calls between 10NM and shutdown and think "if that's how the 'professionals' do it, then so should I".

 

Having returned to instructing at Class G aerodromes after a few years break, the difference in RT is very obvious, probably more so than for someone who has lived with the gradual changes. I studied the AIP and CAAP 166 prior to venturing back into class G and found nothing in the rules had changed, however the practices certainly have!

 

Provided there is no immediate likely hood of a collision, routine calls should be limited to

 

- Inbound

 

- joining circuit (or 3Nm final for a straight in app)

 

- a base call (if you really think it's warranted and for all circuit traffic)

 

For anyone in the circuit respond to inbound traffic with your call sign, type, position and intentions - this allows the inbound guy to start forming a mental picture (situational awareness).

 

For the naysayers, maybe have a chat with some of your mates one day when the circuit is quiet and go try circuits with 3 or 4 aircraft making only a lineup then turning base calls and see how it goes?

 

 

[facthunter]

I have done that with No radio. Would't like to try it with low experience. Keeps the brain active keeping check of where they are. I believe in radio (used intelligently).Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

5 in the circuit at Caboolture is not normal but then it is not unusual either. The day that I went to do circuits and found 7 there already, I decided to go somewhere else.

 

I was taught 10 mile inbound. ( oh and departure when leaving)

 

Overhead with intentions.

 

Jioning.

 

Base with intentions.

 

That is what most of the regulars at Caboolture use and it seems to work well in what can at times be a very busy place. Then just when you think you have it all sorted in will come a couple with no radio at all just to remind you that the most inportant tool you have is the old Mk1 eyeball.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Also keep in mind that at a lot of airports we fly at a radio is NOT mandatory and there ARE planes that don't have them so DON'T assume that because you heard three calls there is only three planes!

 

Also I don't think I would be the only one that has accidently stuffed up a frequency change so it is important to fly predictably and keep a good lookout.

 

Radios are a very good tool IMO but I think they are a little like a GPS, if you are solely relying on it things will one day catch you out.

 

The circuit and the appropriate joining techniques are there so that when we are coming to or when we are at an airfield we know roughly where everyone should be so that we know where to look and also once we have someone spotted we will have a good idea of where they are going. The whole system can work without radios, they no doubt make it better but don't rely on them.

 

 

[Aldo]

What rule do I apparently not know?(I do straight ins if the AFRU answers, the ATIS tells me that I have favourable winds from my approach direction, and nobody else calls before my 3 mile final).

Ada

 

You are not wrong if you elect to do a straight in approach (and I do more times than not) and you are three miles and make the established 3 mile final call then you have right of way.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Aldo]

When I learnt to fly there were two calls (in the circuit) the first was joining crosswind (if that was the direction you were coming from) and downwind for the appropriate runway. Crosswind was joined at the upwind end of the active runway (not mid field as it is today which I don't think is the safest way to do it) and departure overhead was done at the threshold end of the active runway, excellent clearance for inbound and departing traffic both at 1500 ft agl.

 

Ten mile calls are good for slow aircraft but you need to be thinking in minutes, 10 miles in a 3 mile a minute aircraft gives traffic 3 minutes warning, I was taught that the inbound call should be done at the 10 minute mark or at your top of descent point so that departing aircraft are able to determine if they are going to be in conflict with your inbound track and descent path.

 

I also agree with making additional calls as necessary to maintain separation there seem to be some that disagree with this sentiment, I just hope that they are not in the circuit with me.

 

I also agree with Dutch that you should be listening to the CTAF and area frequencies early to build a picture of what is going on I regularly share the airspace with King Airs (fast aircraft on descent) their top of descent calls can be at 60 miles (10 min) or further out and you need to be aware of their track and intentions, you may not hear that call on CTAF but it will be on area.

 

An interesting note because I always make standard IFR/commercial inbound and departure calls (on both CTAF and area) I more often than not get IFR traffic advisories from centre as they know exactly where I am and what my intentions are.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Roundsounds]

An interesting note because I always make standard IFR/commercial inbound and departure calls (on both CTAF and area) I more often than not get IFR traffic advisories from centre as they know exactly where I am and what my intentions are.

So you are saying you deliberately chose to ignore the guidance provided by CAAP 166? These procedures have been developed by a panel of CASA, Airservices and industry representatives and are considered to be the safest and useable option to be adopted by all non-controlled airport users.

I'm glad I'll be driving to the Temora Airshow in November, can you imagine the RT congestion and the impact it will have on the safe and efficient flow of traffic with every aircraft making IFR/commercial departure reports on CTAF? There will be no air time for taxying or runway entry calls. In addition to the line up call there would be "Temora traffic, Jabiru twenty eight thirty six departed time 23, climbing to 6000, tracking 090, Temora" as opposed to "Temora traffic, Jabiru twenty eight thirty six lining up runway 23, departing crosswind Temora"

 

Not sure how IFR/commercial inbound and departure reports differ from any other operation?