SDQDI Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 AdaYou are not wrong if you elect to do a straight in approach (and I do more times than not) and you are three miles and make the established 3 mile final call then you have right of way. Aldo Aldo could you please give me a link to the regs that say you get the right of way on a straight in approach. I've been sifting through the regs (a rarity for me!) and all I can find is the one (166 I think) that says....... I will post a picture might be quicker. Please note (e) which basically says you have to give way to ANY aircraft in the circuit, not just base or final but the whole circuit! 1 1
Aldo Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 So you are saying you deliberately chose to ignore the guidance provided by CAAP 166? These procedures have been developed by a panel of CASA, Airservices and industry representatives and are considered to be the safest and useable option to be adopted by all non-controlled airport users. You would be the first person on this forum to include CASA as expert opinion. I don't know that I'm deliberately choosing to ignore anything I'm actually not sure what CAAP 166 says of the top of my head but I do know that if you want to ask around the areas that I fly if those others feel safe with me in the same airspace you will find that to be a resounding yes, I often get compliments from the commercial operators on how professional I am in conducting my aviation activities so I will continue to do so. I'm glad I'll be driving to the Temora Airshow in November, can you imagine the RT congestion and the impact it will have on the safe and efficient flow of traffic with every aircraft making IFR/commercial departure reports on CTAF? There will be no air time for taxying or runway entry calls. In addition to the line up call there would be "Temora traffic, Jabiru twenty eight thirty six departed time 23, climbing to 6000, tracking 090, Temora" as opposed to "Temora traffic, Jabiru twenty eight thirty six lining up runway 23, departing crosswind Temora"Not sure how IFR/commercial inbound and departure reports differ from any other operation? From someone with your experience the above is just dribble, maybe you should drive more often. Aldo
Aldo Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 Aldo could you please give me a link to the regs that say you get the right of way on a straight in approach. I've been sifting through the regs (a rarity for me!) and all I can find is the one (166 I think) that says....... I will post a picture might be quicker. Please note (e) which basically says you have to give way to ANY aircraft in the circuit, not just base or final but the whole circuit![ATTACH=full]38268[/ATTACH] As far as I'm aware once you are inside 3 miles on a straight in approach you are part of the circuit traffic (I may be wrong) downwind traffic is not conflicting and I wouldn't think someone who has just turned base would be either. I will try to find out when I have time or someone else here will no doubt be able to fill us in. Aldo
Roundsounds Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 I don't know that I'm deliberately choosing to ignore anything I'm actually not sure what CAAP 166 says of the top of my head but I do know that if you want to ask around the areas that I fly if those others feel safe with me in the same airspace you will find that to be a resounding yes, I often get compliments from the commercial operators on how professional I am in conducting my aviation activities so I will continue to do so. So you're telling me you're acting like a "professional", yet you don't know what's in the regulations and guidance material under which you are acting professionally? 1 1
Aldo Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 So you're telling me you're acting like a "professional", yet you don't know what's in the regulations and guidance material under which you are acting professionally? I'm sure I have a pretty good idea what is in the regs I just don't know the reg numbers of the top of my head I would have to go and look it up and I don't have the time, I fly the way I was taught to fly which is the same way all the commercial operators around here do so I'm pretty sure it is the correct way. Only just completed a BFR and the CFI didn't tell me my calls were incorrect or too many.
Phil Perry Posted October 4, 2015 Posted October 4, 2015 It also teaches you to fly by instruments, which is a bad thing. Unless you wish to be an airline pilot,. . . in which case this is a very bad thing,. . .. as it will give you ideas above your experience level and may lead to your belief that you can fly using the clocks and dials on your instrument panel. . . . . . this stuff can, and should ONLY be learned AFTER you have mastered the art of physical flying of the aeroplane, and when your instructor decrees it as part of the syllabus . . . . LISTEN AND LEARN FROM YOUR MENTOR / INSTRUCTOR. . . . Don't try to short cicuit your training by trying to be clever up front. . . . read everything you can by all means,. . . .but follow your training. There are far too many distractions here and elsewhere on the interweb which you MAY think are useful. . .but most of the things you will read about on here will be the experiences of VERY EXPERIENCED aviatiors,. and will therefore be useless to you unitil you have FULLY UNDERSTOOD the basics mate. Sorry to sound like a wet blanket,. . .but that's the only way if you wanna learn properly and stay alive... Enjoy. Phil 2
pmccarthy Posted October 4, 2015 Posted October 4, 2015 We had the John Kennedy Jr. crash on TV again here last night. A good reminder about trying to fly outside VMC and thinking the rules don't apply to you. 2
DrZoos Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I was taught, read and consistently hear that a straight in approach must give way to circuit traffic... https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf 6.7 Straight-in approaches 6.7.1 Straight-in approaches are not a recommended standard procedure. However, Regulation 166B of CAR does not preclude pilots from conducting straight-in approaches provided certain conditions are met. Pilots who choose to adopt a straight-in approach should only do so when it does not disrupt, or conflict with, the flow of circuit traffic. Paragraph 166 (2) (b) of CAR requires a pilot conducting a straight-in approach to give way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern. Nonetheless, pilots conforming to the circuit pattern – particularly on the base leg – should continue to check for traffic entering along the final approach path. My opinion of that is if you push in and back track, forcing an extension or go around your a #### Its really bad airmanship to disrupt the circuit from any approach to the circuit, however at some of these busy training airports you wont get a slot in the circuit if you don't ask... but a straight in is not ok, unless you do so with no disruption to anyone. 4
DrZoos Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I had a dick in a Cessna Citation overtake me on downwind on Sat... within 1/2 nm of the threshold on early downwind... I made a call at 10nm , about to join and joining downwind...then he calls me up as he is overtaking me on the inside too! #dick
Happyflyer Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I'm sure I have a pretty good idea what is in the regs I just don't know the reg numbers of the top of my head I would have to go and look it up and I don't have the time, I fly the way I was taught to fly which is the same way all the commercial operators around here do so I'm pretty sure it is the correct way. Only just completed a BFR and the CFI didn't tell me my calls were incorrect or too many. Just because the commercial operators up your way push in doesn't make it correct. Most commercial operators appreciate it if recreational traffic in the cct lets them it to save time and money. Most recreational traffic is only too happy to let them in. Don't confuse that with right of way. Suggest that whoever taught you got it wrong or you misinterpreted it. This is give way 101 and is included in the pre solo air legislation test.
poteroo Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 As far as I'm aware once you are inside 3 miles on a straight in approach you are part of the circuit traffic (I may be wrong) downwind traffic is not conflicting and I wouldn't think someone who has just turned base would be either. I will try to find out when I have time or someone else here will no doubt be able to fill us in.Aldo Reg 166 is clear on this - anyone on a straight in approach is not considered 'circuit traffic'. So, no matter how close in they are on final - they still don't have any right-of-way. (but, we teach our students to 'give way' if the student is still on downwind when the straight in aircraft calls ' 3 mile final + intentions') If on a reasonably spaced base leg - then student to make call they are now on early/mid/late base - and continue approach. All of this traffic spacing depends on each pilot being absolutely honest about their location. It's very disappointing to sometimes hear a call from a larger charter or RPT as being ' 3 miles' and it then takes them 3 minutes to reach a half mile final position. (given most are not travelling much under 120KIAS). That's plain outright bluffing the little guy. On the other hand, I would chastise a pilot who elects to speed up their downwind and turn a very early base leg, continuing at speeds way above Vfe just to try to assert priority over a heavy on straight in. We can't have it both ways! 6
DrZoos Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 It's very disappointing to sometimes hear a call from a larger charter or RPT as being ' 3 miles' and it then takes them 3 minutes to reach a half mile final position. (given most are not travelling much under 120KIAS). That's plain outright bluffing the little guy. I find they are either stalling, or this is occurring 99.99% of the time... I would suggest in over 100 hours in our local circuit , I have never had an honest distance from a heavy on straight in ever! As for cutting inside, I often do it these days , simply because I can visually see they are outright lying! When they call 5 miles and they are still a spec way up really high, I know they are outright lying. I have even taken out the stop watch and timed them and often they take over 5 minutes from their 5 mile call to touchdown...now tell me how that is even possible in a Dash 8 or ATR 72 or a Caravan etc . They should be around 95-105 knots on late final, so 5nm should never take anywhere near 5 min I often get them call 5nm or 10nm and so i used to extend downwind , sometimes i found I was over 7nm south of the field when i passed them and I was abeam mid field when they called 10nm...impossible...wrong and rude... its happening less lately so Im not sure if someone has had a go at them, but its still very inaccurate
Ada Elle Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 CAR166B requires that all maneuvering be done by 3nm from the threshold; some people might take that to mean that the aircraft is configured into the landing configuration and coming in at approach speed from 3nm onwards. On a 3.3 degree slope, 3nm is 1000ft, so should be around the same time in as a similar aircraft turning base. Also, should be quite visible to any aircraft on late downwind. Anyhow, it seems I opened a can of worms with my original question - but I stand by my statement that the turning base call and the 3nm final call make for a good sequencing point, and thus the base call is probably the most important in-circuit call. (the way I fly is that if I haven't turned base before someone calls 3nm, I extend downwind until I've seen them and can put enough time after them to land safely; whereas if I've called turning base first, I go first, since to do anything else would usually involve going around for another circuit. also, that go around might be up to $50 in a rental plane - not much compared to an RPT going around, but I'm never going to see it again. if the RPT could offer me money for that slot I'd probably take it.)
Aldo Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Just because the commercial operators up your way push in doesn't make it correct. Most commercial operators appreciate it if recreational traffic in the cct lets them it to save time and money. Most recreational traffic is only too happy to let them in. Don't confuse that with right of way. Suggest that whoever taught you got it wrong or you misinterpreted it. This is give way 101 and is included in the pre solo air legislation test. Happy The commercial operators up this way don't push in, the commercial guys, the schools and the rest of us get on quite well actually. I'm very aware that someone on a straight in approach doesn't have right of way and must give way to an aircraft established on base or final (only), unless you fly up this way I suggest you refrain from making comments on how the operators up this way fly. We (the little guy's) give way to the larger/faster traffic out of courtesy but we don't have too
Aldo Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Potts I've since had someone let me know and yes while a straight in approach isn't recommended standard procedure 166B does allow it to happen an aircraft on a straight in approach must give way to aircraft on final or established on base along with a couple of other things.
SDQDI Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I'm very aware that someone on a straight in approach doesn't have right of way and must give way to an aircraft established on base or final (only), We (the little guy's) give way to the larger/faster traffic out of courtesy but we don't have too Actually the way the rules are written even someone on crosswind or downwind has right of way over the straight in but as you say most of us give way out of courtesy not because we are legally bound to (as obviously we aren't). It is all about getting a reasonable balance which is where airmanship comes into it, if you can fit in before they get there well and good, if you can afford to extend a leg and let them in well and good but at the end of the day if you have a few people already in the circuit they aren't going to appreciate you taking them on a 10 mile downwind run just to let farmer bob in his savannah do a straight in. But I think most of us have a good handle on the priorities and I'm sure we are all able to fit in and keep most people happy:thumb up: 1 1
Roundsounds Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 PottsI've since had someone let me know and yes while a straight in approach isn't recommended standard procedure 166B does allow it to happen an aircraft on a straight in approach must give way to aircraft on final or established on base along with a couple of other things. Maybe you could forego some inter web / forum time to read the regulations yourself, rather than rely on other people's interpretation and explaination?
facthunter Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Depending on the (approved) company manual, at least some jets are required to be stabilised on final at 400'. Some may have higher heights specified. Some don't do a lot of short visual approaches, so have a fairly long final. RAAus don't do 3 degree approaches normally as that would require power on most aircraft. Final is normally at 500' AGL and lined up at 400' should be fine and comfortable. The slower ones may be doing a 500' circuit. If you are straight in and there are already aircraft on base, their circuit size is already determined so if there's conflict you can't cut in. Do we want Feeder Airlines going around and joining the other traffic in the circuit? I generally wouldn't think so, from both the cost and safety aspects. My view is IF you are on downwind and without extending very far can let the Dash 8 slot in it's no brainer.. Extend.. I believe the BASE with intentions is the one call that lets people know where you are and what you are going to do at a fairly critical point in the circuit. Your speed on final is probably 1/2 that of most feeder airline aircraft at that point and with a headwind the difference becomes more marked. Nev 3
Happyflyer Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 HappyThe commercial operators up this way don't push in, the commercial guys, the schools and the rest of us get on quite well actually. I'm very aware that someone on a straight in approach doesn't have right of way and must give way to an aircraft established on base or final (only), unless you fly up this way I suggest you refrain from making comments on how the operators up this way fly. We (the little guy's) give way to the larger/faster traffic out of courtesy but we don't have too Aldo, I'm sorry if I have offended you, but when you (wrongly) say you have right of way when on a straight in approach (post 98), and then say the commercial operators up your way fly the same way as you (post 105) I can only take you at your word.
dutchroll Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Depending on the (approved) company manual, at least some jets are required to be stabilised on final at 400'. Some may have higher heights specified. Some don't do a lot of short visual approaches, so have a fairly long final.RAAus don't do 3 degree approaches normally as that would require power on most aircraft. Final is normally at 500' AGL and lined up at 400' should be fine and comfortable. The slower ones may be doing a 500' circuit. If you are straight in and there are already aircraft on base, their circuit size is already determined so if there's conflict you can't cut in. Do we want Feeder Airlines going around and joining the other traffic in the circuit? I generally wouldn't think so, from both the cost and safety aspects. Visual approach: Must be stable by 500' radar altimeter or mandatory go-around. Instrument approach: Must be stable by 1000' radar altimeter or mandatory go-around. "Stable" = all checklists complete aircraft in landing configuration (flaps, gear etc) tracking the extended centreline (unless prescribed by instrument approach) on the normal approach path (3 degrees unless otherwise specified) speed, thrust and rate of descent appropriate for the conditions The big companies are very strict on this and violation of those criteria in ours will flag the QAR (Quick Access Recorder) and earn you an invitation to tea & biscuits in company HQ with the Fleet Manager or Chief Pilot, so RPT do tend to try and get setup a fair way out compared to the little guys.
Aldo Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Aldo, I'm sorry if I have offended you, but when you (wrongly) say you have right of way when on a straight in approach (post 98), and then say the commercial operators up your way fly the same way as you (post 105) I can only take you at your word. Happy I apologize as I didn't add aircraft on base and final have priority, no offence taken. Aldo
facthunter Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Hasn't changed much in essence. 400' was probably the lowest used for Jets I flew. You may not have a landing clearance at that point. "Expect LATE Landing clearance" happens. We did low level circuit training for bad weather circling approach to day/night minimums (Fun stuff). as tight a circuit as many U/L's do. Nev
dutchroll Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Hasn't changed much in essence. 400' was probably the lowest used for Jets I flew. You may not have a landing clearance at that point. "Expect LATE Landing clearance" happens. We did low level circuit training for bad weather circling approach to day/night minimums (Fun stuff). as tight a circuit as many U/L's do. Nev Never used to be quite so strict until some years back when QAR data and a major audit flagged some really horrendous (eye-watering) approaches by a minority of cowboys. They're pretty big on it now. Late landing clearance is no problem and not uncommon as they pack arrivals and departures in tightly.
Sean_Smith11 Posted October 5, 2015 Author Posted October 5, 2015 Wow, This Thread has taken a Drift.
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