What if you controlled policy for a day, what would improve your safety most?

[facthunter]

IF you want to train in unusual attitude recovery you need a plane with some reserve strength. You have to let the student go to a position where the problem is recognised convincingly. The SPIRAL dive doesn't get mentioned much EXCEPT it's specifically NOT taught in RAAus aircraft . A spin won't overload a plane except possibly in the recovery from the dive when the spin is exitted, if not done carefully. A spiral will quickly build up loads that may overstress the airframe if the recovery actions are not quickly and correctly applied.. The first thing taught in UA recovery, is "spin or spiral?" especially under the hood. where you don't have the visual cues for quick recognition. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Here is a current example of poor training:

 

I recently finished training a young guy to fly. As part of his training we stalled the aeroplane with power on, off, clean, landing configuration, turning and induced wing drops (I'm also a GA instructor and teach aerobatics, so am comfortable to train correct stall recognition and recovery within the limits of RAAus aircraft). Having gained his pilot certificate at an FTF a fair distance from his home town he decided to get checked out in a local FTF aircraft. During the upper air sequence he was to demonstrate a stall recovery, he tells me the instructor almost wet himself at the suggestion of stalling the aeroplane in a turn! The FTF insists on glide approaches, but don't allow slipping but use s-turns to lose height. When asked why glide approaches in a Rotax 912 powered aeroplane was considered necessary he was told the earlier "Ultralight" aircraft had two stroke engines which were prone to stopping, so every approach is a glide approach and have carried on this practice.

 

A couple of points here:

 

1. The operator insists on doing low level turns on final approach to lose height, yet doesn't teach or practice stall recovery in turns.

 

2. The operator's reasoning for glide approaches in a modern 4 stroke powered aeroplane is like teaching Cirrus SR22 pilots to do glide approaches because that's what was done in Tiger Moths.

 

I'm quite sure there are poor practices in GA too, but from my observations some instructors can't put training of certain sequences into context. I don't know what the answer is?

 

 

[Yenn]

From other posts here it appears that spin training is considered the way to stop, stall spin on turn to finals. I would rather see training in recognising the onset of stall spin conditions, than recovery from them. A spin started at 500' is going to result in a crash most likely, but recognising the onset and knowing what to do will save lives.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

From other posts here it appears that spin training is considered the way to stop, stall spin on turn to finals. I would rather see training in recognising the onset of stall spin conditions, than recovery from them. A spin started at 500' is going to result in a crash most likely, but recognising the onset and knowing what to do will save lives.

Could agree more, an inadvertent spin from anywhere in the circuit will not be recoverable by a pilot capable of entering such a spin!

Early recognition of the tell-tale signs of a spin (stick position / unbalanced flight / holding off bank) is far more important than spin recovery and its achievable in any RAAus registered aeroplane.

 

 

[facthunter]

Round sounds,You have put your finger on a few of the problems. Perhaps some "concepts " belong to a past era or at least need explaining. I doubt one in 10 pilots I ask to do a sideslip get anywhere near getting it right, unless they have been shown properly and that would appear to be rare. Some aircraft come in with fuel levels massively out of balance and there's usually one major cause of that . Doing a stall is obviously a fearful thing for most and of course it should be practiced in a turn during instruction as that's the most likely time to have it occur. We are sending people into the air not completely prepared for what most likely will be encountered by them any time like a dust devil on approach or mechanical turbulence due trees hangars etc. Not having power on during an approach in rough conditions is just making it unnecessarily hard for your self, and plenty of pilots resist the idea of landing on one wheel in a cross wind, and technique in a cross wind take off is often poorly executed. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

While I'm on my high horse....

 

You can teach spin awareness without spinning an aeroplane, just like you can teach ditching without actually ditching.

 

A series of discussions during training with appropriate demonstrations / guided and monitored practice of scenarios leading to a stall / spin conducted at a safe height can be done - like I do. This subject could be the target of an on-line training package (video / fact sheets).

 

Under CASR Part 61 all new Grade 3 instructors are required to hold a spinning endorsement. No reason why some sort of GA training for RAAus instructors couldn't be completed in say a C150/2, Citabria, Tiger Moth or GA registered Cub or Champ - similar handling to most 3 axis RAAus training aeroplanes. Then instructors would at least know what a spin entry looks like.

 

 

[facthunter]

The trick is to not let the spin happen as you often won't have sufficient height to recover. The plane often goes vertically in below 500 feet. One wing has to stall to make this happen and up till then it's NOT a spin recovery If you quickly apply power and unload the wing with sharp limited forward stick and neutral (centered stick) aileron, it's out of the stall. You don't keep pushing the stick forward any more than you need to or you will bunt it into a vertical dive. Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

My suggestion is that of weather........we often talk about recognising weather that we shouldn't fly into and where that weather is a front that has a very clearly defined change from flying good to flying now really bad then probably the vast majority of pilots will make the right choice and 180 out of there.....but what about when the weather slowly deteriorates....you don't know what you don't know with regards to what's in front so do you push on or don't you?

 

I suspect many of the CFIT incidents will fit that scenario to a T, no VFR only pilot flys into a threatening front full of Cb's yet so often in a CFIT we hear weather was terrible......how do you reconcile those 2 statements and how do we prevent it.......

 

This one is close to home for me......some years ago I ended up where I shouldn't due to a desire to push on....the transition from Ok to not Ok wasn't abrupt and by the time I had worked out I shouldn't be where I was it was too late to turn back.....I had all the wizbang including 2 axis AP and I survived (honestly luck played a part!) but I never want to be in that situation again... Im not generally a fool, but that day I was......I presume that if a normally rational person can have a bad day, decision wise, then we all can. With perfect hindsight vision I can pinpoint almost to the minute the mistakes I made, but the real issue is if I could go back in time (absent my personal learning as a result of my first time around) would I be sure to avoid making the same mistakes again.......I guess as CFIT continues to a killer of airman the honest answer is probably not!

 

Oh and for those with all the wizbang......when I first realised I was in deep trouble I yanked and banked to 90degrees for a real quick 180.......when I was then in cloud a bank that steep would have killed me had I been closer to the ground, I just couldn't take in what the instruments were telling me as fast as it was happening......getting back straight and level was a real challenge (The urge to do something/anything was stronger than the urge to think through a rational and sensible plan) ...as to final heading (given I was aiming for a 180) I have no idea where I finally came out wings level but it sure wasn't the desired 180!!!

 

So....in my case I added to the bucket of experience before the bucket of luck was empty....but how can we ensure that everyone is so lucky!

 

 

[Nobody]

Im not generally a fool, but that day I was......I presume that if a normally rational person can have a bad day, decision wise, then we all can. With perfect hindsight vision I can pinpoint almost to the minute the mistakes I made, but the real issue is if I could go back in time (absent my personal learning as a result of my first time around) would I be sure to avoid making the same mistakes again.......

I think that this is also a great point. When you read a story about a pilots near miss in a magazine there is a temptation to think "I would never do that, I am not that reckless". The reality is that many pilots who end up in these situations are not grossly reckless either, they just made 1 or 2 bad decisions.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

The simple thing to improve safety is make it MUCH harder to get and keep an instructor rating. 250 hours minimum to begin training as instructor and 50 hours a year instructing plus say 20 hours as PIC. This would hopefully lead to fewer people, who imagine they are flight instructors, imposing their incompetence on innocents.

Yes you might actually have to pay the fewer instructors but as has been said "what you get for free is worth what you pay for it".

How about RAAus requiring that its instructors do something more than the RAAus BAK (which is trivial to pass)?

 

My logbook says that I passed the RAAus pre-solo, BAK, Air law, and NAV/MET exams on the same day, 14 days after my first TIF.

 

Surely the standard should be at least PPL theory pass for instructor, and maybe CPL aerodynamics, nav, and met passes for SI.

 

(consider that the greenest of GA Gr3s has a full set of CPL passes.)

 

 

[dazza 38]

How about RAAus requiring that its instructors do something more than the RAAus BAK (which is trivial to pass)?My logbook says that I passed the RAAus pre-solo, BAK, Air law, and NAV/MET exams on the same day, 14 days after my first TIF.

 

Surely the standard should be at least PPL theory pass for instructor, and maybe CPL aerodynamics, nav, and met passes for SI.

 

(consider that the greenest of GA Gr3s has a full set of CPL passes.)

Why try and fix something that isn't broken ?

The current training program has been in place for a lot longer than you have been involved wih the RAA and it has been working fine.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I had a recent experience with cloud tops at 5000 and base at 1500 AGL . Was cruising above but let down through a gap 10 miles from destination and proceeded about 1200 AGL then discovered an intense storm over the destination with scuddy bits down to ground level. I had to do a lot of weaving around to get clear, and it could easily have been more difficult if the gaps were not there. I don't know how you protect against that: in our area you need to be willing to fly under a relatively low cloud base, knowing it is local and will rise to the north, or you would not fly much. Then one day there is a grey wall right in front...

 

I think that is how most of these accidents occur. I have learned a bit more about weather from the experience. It is all very well to say don't go there, but experienced people and novices alike are having the same accidents.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Could agree more, an inadvertent spin from anywhere in the circuit will not be recoverable by a pilot capable of entering such a spin!Early recognition of the tell-tale signs of a spin (stick position / unbalanced flight / holding off bank) is far more important than spin recovery and its achievable in any RAAus registered aeroplane.

I wrote about this some while ago in another thread. I consider myself rather fortunate to have been alive for the last (hells bells, it's thirty years, that's scary ...) thirty years because of something completely unexpected that happened on final at about 300ft.

 

It was 1986 or 1987 and a few days earlier I had taken delivery of the very first Certificated Drifter from Austflight. I had just set up a new flying school in the Brisbane Valley at Toogoolawah and conducted most flying training at the nearby Watts Bridge airfield. There was nothing at Watts in those days except the mown runways and I held ground school under a large gumtree - even that's gone now.

 

Anyway I used to fly the plane over to Watts and back each day, and the ferry flights were my chance to wring it out and get to know it a little better each day. One of the most interesting aspects of this new wonder machine was that it was completely un-spinnable. It had only just gone through its certification and a part of that testing had been to try everything to make it spin. Wayne Fisher was one of those who gave it his best and since the factory had told me that I took it as gospel.

 

I have always liked cross-wind operations and this day it was blowing about 20kts easterly so I chose the cross strip, I was at about 1000ft on a straight-in approach, stuck the right wing down about 45 degrees and gave it a bootfull of left rudder and probably about half of the down elevator available. Drifters slip beautifully since they have so little side area and it just fell out of the air and I was making sideways to windward considerably more than the cross-wind component and since this beastie was un-spinnable I had been playing with getting as slow as possible in the slip.

 

I guess you can all see where this is going ... staying in the slip I slowly brought the right wing up and and bit by bit I brought the stick back while keeping the rudder full left. It was quite amazing, the plane would slow right down until it was nose high, pointing about thirty degrees left of heading, engine idling and down to about 20kts, then it would go into a soft mush and descend quite rapidly but still in full control.

 

Then it happened, at about 300ft the left wing dropped in an instant and the nose started to fall rapidly. Gladly I did my flight training with GFA and while I have never particularly enjoyed spinning, I was perfectly competent with it, and as was mentioned earlier I didn't have to think about what was happening so even though it was unexpected I immediately made corrective action. The recovery took every bit of height I had by which time I had turned left ninety degrees and very nearly picked up the eastern boundary fence with the gear legs ...

 

Needless-to-say I had a chat with the factory later that day and Wayne was delighted of course, so I had to fly over to Boonah to let him have a go. It wouldn't spin for him until I was in the front seat. I carried the minimum ballast but even so the front was lighter by about 10kg with me flying, so the trim weight was what made the difference.

 

I'm not sure that I agree that I would have made the correct recovery action quickly enough if I'd only been taught "spin awareness without spinning an aeroplane" so I'm very glad full spin training was a part of the GFA curriculum.

 

My suggestion is that of weather........we often talk about recognising weather that we shouldn't fly into and where that weather is a front that has a very clearly defined change from flying good to flying now really bad then probably the vast majority of pilots will make the right choice and 180 out of there.....but what about when the weather slowly deteriorates....you don't know what you don't know with regards to what's in front so do you push on or don't you?I suspect many of the CFIT incidents will fit that scenario to a T, no VFR only pilot flys into a threatening front full of Cb's yet so often in a CFIT we hear weather was terrible......how do you reconcile those 2 statements and how do we prevent it.......

 

This one is close to home for me......some years ago I ended up where I shouldn't due to a desire to push on....the transition from Ok to not Ok wasn't abrupt and by the time I had worked out I shouldn't be where I was it was too late to turn back.....I had all the wizbang including 2 axis AP and I survived (honestly luck played a part!) but I never want to be in that situation again... Im not generally a fool, but that day I was......I presume that if a normally rational person can have a bad day, decision wise, then we all can. With perfect hindsight vision I can pinpoint almost to the minute the mistakes I made, but the real issue is if I could go back in time (absent my personal learning as a result of my first time around) would I be sure to avoid making the same mistakes again.......I guess as CFIT continues to a killer of airman the honest answer is probably not!

 

Oh and for those with all the wizbang......when I first realised I was in deep trouble I yanked and banked to 90degrees for a real quick 180.......when I was then in cloud a bank that steep would have killed me had I been closer to the ground, I just couldn't take in what the instruments were telling me as fast as it was happening......getting back straight and level was a real challenge (The urge to do something/anything was stronger than the urge to think through a rational and sensible plan) ...as to final heading (given I was aiming for a 180) I have no idea where I finally came out wings level but it sure wasn't the desired 180!!!

 

So....in my case I added to the bucket of experience before the bucket of luck was empty....but how can we ensure that everyone is so lucky!

Helpful story Andy. I think anecdotal tales such as these are a very useful tool toward helping with avoidance of bad situations and also toward people developing their own solutions for when they might get into trouble. Anything that's been thought out previously is so much easier to deal with if it happens in real-time. And not just for the newbie either, I think any of us can get into strife, as your story demonstrates.

 

With that in mind, a couple of years ago I started a thread on another forum called something like "There I was, when suddenly ...". The idea was that people should write about some of their hair-raising moments that they'd escaped from so that others might at least gain an awareness of the kinds of things that lead to trouble. I started it off by telling a couple of tales about things that had gone wrong for me and talking about what I thought I had done wrong, and what would have been a better course of action if I'd had the chance to do it again.

 

Unfortunately it didn't come to much, not many people contributed. I seemed to have quite a string of near-misses I could have written about. I'm not sure whether others were too embarrassed to discuss their weak moments, whether they didn't do much flying that was challenging, or whether I was a bit of a Captain Calamity but the thread rapidly died out. I think that was a shame because not only are stories of near-misses with successful outcomes very entertaining, but there's a lot to learn for all of us from each of them.

 

 

[K-man]

I have to agree with dazza above. If you could improve safety by changing a few rules and regulations it would have been done before now. I don't believe it needs changing despite the increasing number of incidents. If people did what they have been properly trained to do, the number of incidents would reduce substantially.

 

If you look at car crashes and fatalities you will find the highest proportion involve low hour drivers, usually young. In Victoria, not sure of other states, they have introduced a log book system and a requirement for more supervised hours of driving before awarding a licence, then there are three years as a probationary driver. What they have recognised is drivers need experience to become safer drivers and I would argue, pilots need experience to be safer pilots.

 

Just as drivers need experience in different conditions, so do pilots. Most training is conducted in good conditions. I lost count of the number of times an instructor said "you wouldn't want to fly today, would you?" My answer was nearly always, "why not?" Followed by, "I wouldn't normally fly in these conditions but if I find myself in these conditions I would like to know that I have at least experienced them before, with an experienced person beside me."

 

You can tinker around the edges with aircraft weight, which won't affect most existing RA aircraft, or allow limited CTA, which in an emergency you could use anyway, but the truth is it won't do a lot in terms of saving lives. As to requiring a higher level of theoretical training for RAA instructors, most are already PPL and many are CPL. That will do absolutely nothing unless their training is passed on to the student, and there is a syllabus in place. If the syllabus is not being taught, it's not being taught. Giving the instructor a higher level of training won't change that.

 

How many hours does an airline first officer fly before being given command? The answer to recreational flying safety is quite simple, but I'm not sure that any of us would want to embrace it. The answer is to fly more supervised hours under every type of condition imaginable. If it can't legally or safely be done in an RA aircraft it could be done in a sim. If you genuinely want to increase safety, go to the CPL requirement for 150 hours, including 70 hours PIC, 20 hours cross country (PIC) and 10 hours on instruments.

 

Nothing takes the place of experience. The question is, are we prepared to pay for it?

 

 

[facthunter]

Experience IS important but If you aren't taught it, it will be a hit and miss as to whether you ever work it out for yourself. Hours of doing the same thing are not productive hours. Also people shouldn't regard dual as something you "just" have to do. It's something you should make the most of and demand good answers from your instructor on technique, till you understand what is happening fully.. Depending on your personal attitude solo can be a bit relaxed, if you don't maintain self discipline. Do a debriefing after each flight . Work out what you could have done better.(and there will always be something, if you are honest and look hard enough). Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Any low hour pilot should also consider flying with a range of high hour pilots where ever possible... they can always give you something you can put in the tool kit for later use. I try to take high hour pilots who don't own planes with me at any opportunity. They get to fly my plane and I get some gems to file away for later...I have found this invaluable

 

Flying so often I have far more recency and motor skills than most older pilots, but their experience and knowledge dwarfs mine and many and one day those stories and examples passed on will probably save some more lives...

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Why try and fix something that isn't broken ?The current training program has been in place for a lot longer than you have been involved wih the RAA and it has been working fine.

"Working fine".

 

Obviously it's not, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Another tip, and this one is bound to get 100 plus likes is, shouting older pilots a beer and picking thier brains for stories, incidents , lessons and anecdotes is possibly the best value beers you will ever buy in your life, and may actually save your life...

 

Im in quiet a big club and we have weekly friday drinks, which i used to religiously attend, and now attend about once a month... Those chats are some of the best learning i get and is absolutely invaluable. $20-$30 on the bar buys me about a $100 plus of experience everytime

 

 

[Litespeed]

DRZoos,

 

You only get a like if you buy me a beer

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Nailed it, Ada Elle.

 

 

 

[DrZoos]

Litespeed- Your too young, i might get arrested for supply!

 

 

[Litespeed]

Nah,

 

Have you ever noticed the bloody grey hairs get thicker and the ones in the beard grow twice as fast as the black ones?

 

I liked been called Black beard- but Grey beard is no fun.

 

 

[dazza 38]

"Working fine".Obviously it's not, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nah you are having the discussion. You are trying to suggest extra training for ultralight instructors that simply is not needed.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Over the last 15 to 20 years has seen the passing of some truly top pilots like the old ex WW2 guys that moved on to open up places like PNG, started the AG or heli mustering industries. Their knowledge has gone with them. I was lucky to fly with some and enjoyed the times when they said 'here have a go yourself'.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Nah you are having the discussion. You are trying to suggest extra training for ultralight instructors that simply is not needed.

Maybe when ultralights were 95.10 machines with a max BEW of 300kg, but at an MTOW of 1500kg?

 

Do you want RAA to still be the AUF, or do you want it to be GA-lite?

 

Do you want stalls to be demonstrated by someone who potentially doesn't understand loading charts, how to calculate CoG, and how CoG affects stall/spin behaviour?

 

You can't argue for watered down standards for ultralights and then claim that an RPC is equivalent to an RPL in training.