What if you controlled policy for a day, what would improve your safety most?

[Roundsounds]

Which means that you got the correct answer and still choose to say they're wrong.You have problems lady!

I get Ada's point, an instructor should know that basic stuff. By all means suggest something more conservative with justification, but at least know the answer.

 

 

[Nobody]

Yes - and given Ada's description of 'over cautious' or words to that effect, one wonders whether 'they' might have been very responsibly referring to the unexpected dangers of tracking east to an evening destination or tracking east with high ground to the west?Ever experienced either of those Ada? With cloud in the west, especially? It's so easy to be critical when you're a newbie. Ever seen the old hands being so incensed as you always seem to be?

 

Give it a few years, when you have some real experience and you'll see things in a different light. In the meantime take care not to harm those who may well have your best interests at heart.

I think that if an instructor/ senior pilot is asked the legal requirement for something they should be able to say it and not some higher conservative standard. They can then go in to discuss why in some circumstances that isn't necessarily safe.

 

I find many people over state the laws on the safe side. That is fine. It is safer and not illegal. But it is also important that people understand that this isn't the rule. Someone the other day tried to tell me that 2000 feet was the minimum height you are allowed to fly because that is what their instructor told them. They were a bit shocked when I showed them the real rule.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Having landed a couple of minutes before "last light" on a cloudy day with hills to the west I can well understand why an experienced pilot would tell a new pilot to be on the ground at least half an hour or more before last light. Just saying "10 minutes before last light" tells the new pilot the law but not the practicalities of flying. Having said that I find it hard to believe all instructors would not know the rule about planning to be on the ground at least 10 minutes before last light because it is in the air law exam given out by RAAus and I'm sure every instructor has marked that exam many times.

 

 

[Camel]

Ada, I'm sure you are a very intelligent person, have you seen the flight safety magazine questions ? I'm always find them poorly or confusingly worded, your thoughts ? I never get them all because half the time I don't understand the question ! Bloody Geniuses!

I meant to give you the link. Enjoy. http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/avquiz/

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Having said that I find it hard to believe all instructors would not know the rule about planning to be on the ground at least 10 minutes before last light because it is in the air law exam given out by RAAus and I'm sure every instructor has marked that exam many times.

It's not even planning to be on the ground, though - unless you add circuit time to your nav planning (I don't).

 

I meant to give you the link. Enjoy. http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/avquiz/

Not just confusing, but utterly and completely wrong in some instances. (the coriolis force question)

 

 

[Ada Elle]

I take that back; it's just confusing (because surface winds are different to winds aloft).

 

 

[K-man]

The answer is actually in AIP-AIP ENR 1.2, Visual Flight Rules:

 

1.1.2 Unless the pilot in command is authorised under CASR Part 61 to

 

conduct a flight under the IFR or at night under the VFR and the aircraft is appropriately equipped for flight at night or under the IFR, a VFR flight must not:

 

1. be conducted at night; and
    
    
   
2. depart from an aerodrome unless the ETA for the destination (or alternate) is at least 10 minutes before last light allowing for any required holding.
    
    
   

 

 

Or in the VFRG, pretty basic and simple rule.

 

http://www.vfrg.com.au/operations/general-information/visual-flight-rules/

I would suggest that this is not as hard and fast a rule as Ada Elle is suggesting. You must plan the flight for 10 minutes before last light (ETA) but unless you live on a planet with no wind it is very hard to plan with certainty that you will always arrive at that time, short flights excepted. Off the to of my head, I think it was suggested that at Likydale, where we are just East of a row of hills, 20 minutes is more appropriate and if it is heavy overcast you may need half an hour.So, if a group of instructors or pilots were discussing last light I wouldn't be dismayed at all if they had a range of views. Sometimes the letter of the law is not quite right. Sometimes you have to use a bit of common sense.

 

http://services.casa.gov.au/outnback/inc/pages/episode2/episode-2_The_lowdown_on_Last_Light.shtml

 

 

[dazza 38]

There must be instructors out there who earn every single cent of their instructors pay when they come across super anal studnts that must question every single thing.

 

 

[K-man]

Actually the law is, you can't legally fly after last light unless you are night rated and in an aircraft fitted with instruments for IFR. As long as you land before last light you are legal. Whether it us safe to arrive 10 minutes before last light is totally another matter.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/5_13_2.pdf

 

 

[DrZoos]

 

As i previously stated the cta in isolation is not an issue, but combine that with cloudy ranges at 4800 to the west ocean to the east, and all the restriced airspace and hopefully in these two images you.

 

 

 

[Camel]

There must be instructors out there who earn every single cent of their instructors pay when they come across super anal studnts that must question every single thing.

Dazza you are right about that but it not just students you come across as you can see !

 

 

[K-man]

[ATTACH=full]38183[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]38182[/ATTACH]As i previously stated the cta in isolation is not an issue, but combine that with cloudy ranges at 4800 to the west ocean to the east, and all the restriced airspace and hopefully in these two images you.

It was one of my goals to fly from the top of Cape York, coastal, to Melbourne. Unfortunately poor weather stopped me flying the first leg to Cooktown. I had to go via Weipa and across to the coast. From Cooktown south to Merimbula is almost all controlled airspace unless you go inland to avoid it, something we didn't want to do. So my wife did a fantastic job flying all the way coastal through all that controlled airspace, conditions she is not accustomed to be flying in. I had to wait 'til Merimbula for my turn to fly, then I was able to fly through Sale airspace, legally with RPC, back to Lilydale.

There is an anomaly here as well. RA pilots can obtain clearance to fly through some airspace but not other. I think from memory it is airspace designated with an A suffix, as with Sale, R358A.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

There is an anomaly here as well. RA pilots can obtain clearance to fly through some airspace but not other. I think from memory it is airspace designated with an A suffix, as with Sale, R358A.

No, the suffix (A B C etc) is used to seperate the restricted area into smaller blocks, normally based on altitude. Unless you have CTA endorsement or approval from CASA you can't access an active restricted area (it's class C airspace) regardless of being given a clearance by ATC.

 

 

[K-man]

No, the suffix (A B C etc) is used to seperate the restricted area into smaller blocks, normally based on altitude. Unless you have CTA endorsement or approval from CASA you can't access an active restricted area (it's class C airspace) regardless of being given a clearance by ATC.

Not the information I was given by RAA. If you submit a flight plan you can be given clearance to fly through Sale airspace. I'm not sure how many other restricted areas are available but Sale is definitely one.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Well i hope you got that in writing. I wonder if it's been confused with Restricted area conditional status, that is RA1 RA2 or RA3 (RA1 allows flight planning through restricted areas). However RA1 is still controlled airspace so would be off limits to RA-AUS pilots (unless they have a CTA endorsement).

 

 

[facthunter]

There are a lot of local factors that can affect last light. Mountain ranges to the West and weather (Dust, Smog extensive cloud to the west blocking the sun earlier. etc)

 

You can get a theoretical last light from the graphs. You allow 10% of flight fuel as a variable reserve, but you limit your "reserve" time for last light to 10 minutes??? if you were on a reasonably long trip, (4 hours +) why would 10 minutes be a reasonable figure?. If you became aware that you were losing time to the extent of 10 minutes plus you are not legal to continue.. Why put yourself in THAT position.? If you were checking a student and he/she put that plan up would you pass them? I doubt I would unless it was urgent and an alternate was planned. Nev

 

 

[Nobody]

If someone asks "What's the speed limit on the freeway?" Do you respond 110 or give a long discussion about how some times with very heavy rain you can only drive at 40?

 

You need to make the distinction between what is "Safe" and what is "legal". They are often two different things. Too often in aviation someone asks what is" legal". A person answers with what they have been taught is "safe". This then gets interpreted as the legal position by the first person and before you know it there are new phantom imaginary rules passing from folklore into accepted procedures.

 

 

[facthunter]

Dunno about the analogy. You can pull over in a car. Aeroplanes are DIFFERENT Running out of daylight is illegal if not suitably rated and equipped. It can also be dangerous.

 

Perhaps a lot of the problems with flying is reducing it to numbers, instead of awareness of situations and . flight management. I have always thought so. Understand just what factors are applying to your situation. 10 minutes before last light is maybe OK if it's just back to a local strip. (Your own or one you are familiar with) But why plan to do it on a longer flight? You are often forced to land but very rarely forced to take off.. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

My take on the 10mins is for local/short flights. Anything longer should allow greater margins or land when in flight calculations indicate the margin no longer exists.

 

Unless it has changed, the CPL (day VFR) licence syllabus required 10hrs night flying to cover this eventuality where the pilot might be required to fly to these limits.

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Prudence would suggest more reserve, especially if other factors (cloud, local hills/escarpments - I'm looking at you, YWOL, etc come into play) but I was asking about the understanding of the law, not what was taught to students.

 

(A personal mistake made with this involved an overwater crossing at 4000ft for glide safety, followed by a misjudged descent and spending 5 minutes circling to descend, during which time it got very dark indeed. My ETA at the destination was 20 minutes before last light, and I was within the vicinity of the circuit by that time, but actually getting on the ground took more than I budgeted for. I'm not making that mistake again.)

 

 

[K-man]

I remember one flight where I turned final and could hardly see the runway it was so dark. Couldn't quite work out how I had run out of light so quickly ... then I took of my sunnies!

 

 

 

[biggles]

Not the information I was given by RAA. If you submit a flight plan you can be given clearance to fly through Sale airspace. I'm not sure how many other restricted areas are available but Sale is definitely one.

I never cease to be amazed with the ongoing and varied opinions regarding RPC holders entering controlled or military airspace . There should be no doubt whatsoever, that a holder of a RPC , without no other relevant qualifications and endorsements , is guilty of an offence by entering active restricted airspace . It is not the responsibility of the controller to ask you bona fides , but your responsibility to know the limits of your certificate. .Be under no illusion you are committing an illegal act ...... Bob

 

 

[Yenn]

Cooktown to Merimbula all controlled airspace!! What maps are you using?You can go coastal past Maryborough, Bundaberg, Gladstone and Rocky ans still stay clear of controlled airspace.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

My take on the 10mins is for local/short flights. Anything longer should allow greater margins or land when in flight calculations indicate the margin no longer exists.Unless it has changed, the CPL (day VFR) licence syllabus required 10hrs night flying to cover this eventuality where the pilot might be required to fly to these limits.

The CPL (day VFR) requires 10 hours of instrument flight time, half of which may be done in a simulator. There is no requirement for any night time.

 

 

[frank marriott]

The CPL (day VFR) requires 10 hours of instrument flight time, half of which may be done in a simulator. There is no requirement for any night time.

Wouldn't argue it was a while ago (might have related to the CIR , there was something I didn't have to complete as it was covered by holding current class4 or NVFR) I thought it was for the CPL syllabus.

 

In any case what is current is what is important now, what may have been is only history.