Where do we come from

[Graham Pukallus]

That is a good question Dazza... Who of the originals are left?

 

I'm still here flying most days, no 000482.

 

Graham Puk.

 

 

[Keith Page]

That is a good question Dazza... Who of the originals are left?I'm still here flying most days, no 000482.

Graham Puk.

That is fantastic to see Puk..

You are one of the early originals.

 

Regards,KP.

 

 

[dazza 38]

HITC was my very first ultralight instructor , I know Peter Read (we still keep in touch is still keep in touch on FB) is still instructing down in Tassie.

 

 

[dazza 38]

That is fantastic to see Puk..You are one of the early originals.

Regards,KP.

Graham sent me solo in 1990 at Boonah.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Husband joined in the 1980's and has a membership number in the 4,400 series, I joined in 1999/2000 and have one in 13,000. His number seems a bit high for his join date, but I'll have a look through his early stuff to see what date he joined. I have invoices etc from 1981 - 1986 from Ron Wheeler & others, when he was building the Scout; and the initial registration from June 1988.

 

Sue

 

 

[dazza 38]

Husband joined in the 1980's and has a membership number in the 4,400 series, I joined in 1999/2000 and have one in 13,000. His number seems a bit high for his join date, but I'll have a look through his early stuff to see what date he joined. I have invoices etc from 1981 - 1986 from Ron Wheeler & others, when he was building the Scout; and the initial registration from June 1988.

Sue

I interesting Sue, membership numbers were issued in a numerical order. Dunno what happened with your husbands number. From number 1 to approx member 2000 when from the very first day until around 1990.

 

 

[aj_richo]

Mine is 1601

 

Joined 1988.. I think lol

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I just pulled my old file out with RAA database details. It says date of first membership 20 May 1983. Membership number 004716. But I don't remember joining until 1992, so I reckon the database is wrong. It has to be, as AUF did not exist until June 1983. Even so, the membership number doesn't gel with others. AUF had 700 members by June 1984 and 2000 members by mid 1985, so numbers should match that total.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Interesting .... His card from 1992 (valid for 2 years) has "Membership No. 101523" and "Pilot Certificate No. 004446". According to John Brandon's history http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/regulations/benchmarks.html there were 2400 members in 1990.

 

 

 

I found some handwritten (Kalamazoo system) AUF receipts from the late 1980's - some with no detail apart from date, name and amount. I found one for 1988 for membership renewal and one for aircraft registration. John Brandon reports 1,150 members in 1987.

 

 

 

So, at some point the Pilot Certificate number became the Membership number. It also appears that the certificate number exceeds the number of members at the time of issue.

 

 

 

I am guessing there was some form of coding in the numbering. Eg 4 for Qld, or 10 to start off, being 95-10 (member number 1,523 seem more reasonable for the time than 101,523). Another theory - after the great Server collapse (when no one did a back-up and all the records had to be re-entered from paper files), perhaps it was easier to use the Pilot number rather than a separate member number?

 

 

 

Sue

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I had a look at the RAA information sent with our membership/licence renewals - his is 1988 (when he registered the aircraft, but he was probably a member before that), and mine is 2001; however I have receipts from 1999 & 2000. In my case it might be moving from one category to another (I did a conversion on a Lightwing) however that is a year or so late for 2001.

 

I had another theory about the membership number - that it was the same as the aircraft - but our Scout was 10-0298. The Karasport was 10-033 but was changed to 10-1382 (no idea why). This is probably all due to the early AUF not realising the future popularity of ultralights, not planning for the computer age, and perhaps losing some corporate knowledge and making odd decisions. For example, the number 033 may have been issued for three aircraft eg 10-033, 25-033, 32-033. Today that number is issued once only, allowing aircraft to move between categories.

 

As I work through the old AUF magazines I might find some answers.

 

 

[kasper]

"eg 10-033, 25-033, 32-033. Today that number is issued once only, allowing aircraft to move between categories"

 

Hmmm - the reason to not use a sequence number across different groups is probably nothing to do with moving between categories as moving 10- 25- 32- 55- between sequences are either impossible or very unlikely but is everything to do with the changes in the ops manual on radio call signs.

 

When we moved from regn sequence specific calls to generic calls we then had problems with regn numbers coexisting between groups of aircraft:

 

eg - old calls were inclusive of reg sequence/ANO/CAO

 

10-0124 = "Ultralight Alpha one two four"

 

25-0124 = "Ultralight Papa one two four"

 

Now all call signs are one size fits all:

 

Vampire 25-0124 = “Vampire zero one two four”

 

Thruster 10-0124 = "Thruster zero one two four"

 

so removing duplicate appearances of sequence numbers is useful .... but it limits the total number available to 9,999 and we probably already have close to that so good luck RAA.

 

My two cents on the changes is it was not good - my self designed 1 off single seat trike is designated as a "Sutton KID 1" so its call sign is "Sutton Kid one thirty five eighty three" and trust me that means much less to anyone hearing it than "Ultralight trike Charlie five eighty three" would.

 

I would have preferred we went to "Ultralight ten one two four" with a permissive type designation which might help people other than RAA pilots if it is a well known type "Ultralight Jabiru fifty five niner four zero"

 

Then we retain 9,999 possible aircraft within each grouping.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

my self designed 1 off single seat trike is designated as a "Sutton KID 1" so its call sign is "Sutton Kid one thirty five eighty three"

Wouldn't your callsign actually be "Trike thirty five eighty three" (RAAus) or "Microlight thirty five eighty three" (HGFA) according to the examples in the respective organisation's Operations Manuals ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[peterg]

Interesting .... His card from 1992 (valid for 2 years) has "Membership No. 101523" and "Pilot Certificate No. 004446". According to John Brandon's history http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/regulations/benchmarks.html there were 2400 members in 1990.  

 

I found some handwritten (Kalamazoo system) AUF receipts from the late 1980's - some with no detail apart from date, name and amount. I found one for 1988 for membership renewal and one for aircraft registration. John Brandon reports 1,150 members in 1987.

 

 

 

So, at some point the Pilot Certificate number became the Membership number. It also appears that the certificate number exceeds the number of members at the time of issue.

 

 

 

I am guessing there was some form of coding in the numbering. Eg 4 for Qld, or 10 to start off, being 95-10 (member number 1,523 seem more reasonable for the time than 101,523). Another theory - after the great Server collapse (when no one did a back-up and all the records had to be re-entered from paper files), perhaps it was easier to use the Pilot number rather than a separate member number?

 

 

 

Sue

Hi

 

Most of my flying is GA - Australia, New Zealand, US, UK to Australia in C170 and learnt to fly in Chippies in 1960's

 

Got the AUF bug in 1987 (Thrusters & Drifters) - my initial AUF Pilot Certificate (little blue book) had a membership number of 0527 - my Ra-Aus membership is 000527.

 

That said, my AUF membership cards (some of which I still have): 1988 No. 302245, 1990 No. 302245, 1991 101012

 

Sort of strange set of numbers.

 

 

[kasper]

Wouldn't your callsign actually be "Trike thirty five eighty three" (RAAus) or "Microlight thirty five eighty three" (HGFA) according to the examples in the respective organisation's Operations Manuals ?Cheers

 

John

Could be "Trike 3583" - never understood why the examples in the RAA ops manual treat them differently from the others where the manufacturer is concerned - but the RAA did seem to overlook that 'trike' come from both the 95.10 and 95.32 series ... and for me my homebuilt trike was built in another country by me to my design and transferred to OZ register with cancelled UK cert of regn with a designation - Sutton Kid 1

Could use the generic "Trike" and I suppose I could use the generic "Ultralight" for my old sapphire - the ops manual is not clear and in fact using "Ultralight" for my sapphire would arguable be safer as its one of the few fat wing KFM 28hp VERY slow sapphires around and to call it "Sapphire" would mislead anyone expecting 60-70knts on downwind, I get along at closer to 40!

 

 

[dazza 38]

Mine is 1601Joined 1988.. I think lol

I joined in the first part of 1988 and my membership number and pilot cert number is 001715. So it would appear that it was in numerical sequence back then. It is interesting some of the other members numbers though .

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I didn't like gliding being dumped in with helicopters. I've heard that helicopters don't really fly, they are so ugly that the ground repels them.

 

Gliders are the opposite in every way. And I didn't "come" from gliding, I still have one. Some days flying a glider is like magic.

 

 

[bull]

G,day all

 

I just pulled my old file out with RAA database details. It says date of first membership 20 May 1983. Membership number 004716. But I don't remember joining until 1992, so I reckon the database is wrong. It has to be, as AUF did not exist until June 1983. Even so, the membership number doesn't gel with others. AUF had 700 members by June 1984 and 2000 members by mid 1985, so numbers should match that total.

,well i would have to agree about the data base being WRONG as i joined back in 99 and my old number was 4013,and then left for many years and renewed in 2015 and my number is 12061 ,,,,,hmmmmmm

 

 

[biggles]

I joined in the first part of 1988 and my membership number and pilot cert number is 001715. So it would appear that it was in numerical sequence back then. It is interesting some of the other members numbers though .

Ah , so it's you that they get me mixed up with ! I'm 17105 . I'm always getting letters about .............. and other 'misdemeanours' .

 

 

[dazza 38]

G,day all,well i would have to agree about the data base being WRONG as i joined back in 99 and my old number was 4013,and then left for many years and renewed in 2015 and my number is 12061 ,,,,,hmmmmmm

They should have reissued your original membership number to you Scott ( as long as you gave them your original number to you when you rejoined ).

 

 

[bull]

They should have reissued your original membership number to you Scott ( as long as you gave them your original number to you when you rejoined ).

No Dazza that was the way it was ,so i,m thinking data snafu somewhere,,,,,,,,,,,,,,lol

 

 

[dazza 38]

Thanks all of the above for your posts. What I can gather is there is even more complications and confusion in the past as some people who have not renewed for a while and rejoined have not been issued there original membership number. Now we get even more corrupted data. We could have worked out how many people have been and gone from the AUF/RAA by a looking at the latest membership number , lets say at a guess 25 000. Then we could have looked at current financial members of say 10 000. We then would have deduced that over the time we have had 15000 who have tried ultralight flying but moved on to other things or retired from fly ect.

 

Now it appears that some people have been issued more than one membership number in the past. So now we dont really know how many people in total have ever joined?

 

Of course it is probably useless data anyway, but it made it easier to see how many actual individuals have joined in total.

 

 

[DrZoos]

If you want to really understand your market, you need entry and exit surveys... every time someone fails to renew they should be offered a survey several times to find out why...what caused them to leave... similarly if someone does a TIFF and does not follow through we need to find out what got them to the TIFF and what stopped the progressing into training... ..its best if its done on the phone because you can ask the 3-5 why's to get to the real reason...

 

When they say its too expensive, ask why, then they say because they have other priorities , ask why or what...then they say they have 4 kids a HECS debt and owe $25,000 on credit cards and a $500,000 mortgage... we now know that person was never a realistic prospect....but may be a long time in the future... this has nothing to do with price....

 

On a written survey you just cant get this level of understanding as to the real reasons...and even in person you cant get it unless your prepared to ask why , what why what why till you get the real reason... generally on the 3rd approach the real reason shines through..

 

 

[frank marriott]

Thanks all of the above for your posts. What I can gather is there is even more complications and confusion in the past as some people who have not renewed for a while and rejoined have not been issued there original membership number. Now we get even more corrupted data. We could have worked out how many people have been and gone from the AUF/RAA by a looking at the latest membership number , lets say at a guess 25 000. Then we could have looked at current financial members of say 10 000. We then would have deduced that over the time we have had 15000 who have tried ultralight flying but moved on to other things or retired from fly ect.Now it appears that some people have been issued more than one membership number in the past. So now we dont really know how many people in total have ever joined?

Of course it is probably useless data anyway, but it made it easier to see how many actual individuals have joined in total.

Dazza

 

Not that it matters IMO but just for your info I joined in 2008 and my my number is plus 23000, so 25 may even be a bit low ?

 

 

[DrZoos]

Important Important Important Important Important

 

Guys stop giving away your ###### numbers...I wont say why other than its a security issue. Please trust me on this and definitely do not say why in here as it will provide your info and how to use it to scammers!

 

Important Important Important Important Important

 

 

If anyone else posts numbers elsewhere please repost this or something similar

 

 

[kasper]

Important Important Important Important Important Guys stop giving away your ###### numbers...I wont say why other than its a security issue. Please trust me on this and definitely do not say why in here as it will provide your info and how to use it to scammers!

 

Important Important Important Important Important

 

 

 

If anyone else posts numbers elsewhere please repost this or something similar

Interesting - if the RAA database is THAT poor on security then the issues I raised with the 'secure' online payment facility they use are peanuts.

Please elaborate or PM me