Weight shift in Class D

[ricky m]

Is it possible to fly raa factory built wieght shift in class D? If u have raa endorsement and rpl with ctr endorsement?like u can fixed wing....

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

At Coffs, which is class D there is a flying school that flys 95.55 machines and also 95.32 machines. The CFI has a PPL which is more than an RPL but at the end of the day a 95.32 machine flys in class D.....

 

 

[kasper]

95.32 can fly in class D if:

 

7.3 An aeroplane may be flown inside Class A, B, C or D airspace only if all of the following conditions are complied with:

 

(a) the aeroplane is certificated to the design standards specified in regulation 21.186 of CASR 1998 or is approved under regulation 262AP of CAR 1988 in regard to flights over closely-settled areas;

 

(b) the aeroplane is fitted with an engine of a kind to which paragraph 6.1 of Civil Aviation Order 101.55 applies, or that CASA has approved as being suitable for use in an aircraft to which this Order applies, and is not subject to any conditions that would prevent the flight;

 

© the aeroplane is fitted with a radio capable of two-way communication with air traffic control;

 

(d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a pilot licence with an aeroplane category rating:

 

(i) issued under Part 61 of CASR 1998; and

 

(ii) that allows the holder to fly inside the controlled airspace;

 

(e) the pilot has a valid flight review for the class rating in accordance with Part 61 of CASR 1998;

 

(f) if the controlled airspace in which the aeroplane is operating requires a transponder to be fitted — the aeroplane is fitted with a transponder suitable for use in the airspace.

 

Note Operations in Class A airspace in V.F.R. are only possible in accordance with a permission issued by CASA under regulation 99AA of CAR 1988.

 

Thats straight out of the current 95.32 ... so basic answer is its possible BUT not in all 95.32 machines (they need a certified engine) and definitely not on either a HGFA or RAA pilots certificate (you need a licence)

 

 

[Ada Elle]

Do you need a certified engine? I thought the 912UL was 'approved' but not 'certified'

 

 

[kasper]

Do you need a certified engine? I thought the 912UL was 'approved' but not 'certified'

'ish...

6.1 Engine Requirements. One of the following conditions must be satisfied in relation to the engine installed in the aeroplane:

 

(a) the engine is of a type to which a certificate of type approval under this subsection applies;

 

(b) the engine is of a type that has been certified as an aircraft engine in accordance with FAR 33, BCAR C or JAR E;

 

© the engine is of a type that has been approved by CASA as being appropriate for use in aeroplanes to which this section applies.

 

Note: An aeroplane to which this section applies that has an engine of a kind to which subparagraph 6.1 © applies may, because of the characteristics of that engine, have conditions included in its certificate of airworthiness.

 

And you can look up the 36 paragraphs from 6.2-6.38 of 101.55 that detail the requirements to allow 6.1(a) to apply. For example Jabiru hold at least two different type certificated for their 2200 engines but have made hundreds if not thousands of engines that do not hold type certificates.

 

I put out there the certified engine because for the 912 there are certified ones that if fitted to a 95.32 trike would (subject to pilot allowance and radio) be permitted ... and equally there are 912's out there that absolutely do not hold certification fitted to the same trike airframes and for which I am not aware of any manufacturer going through the 36 paragraphs to get it approved by CASA ... and as all engines that might have started out approved or certified but not been maintained EXACTLY to the book they fall out of approval/certification ... and are then not allowed to access the airspace ...

 

Basic problem is that I am not seeing how a controller on the end of a radio getting a radio call from "Medway Raven 1058" is going to know if the engine on the back is certified/approved or for a number of reason no-longer certified/approved. With most GA there is a current way to know this reasonably - they are maintained to an approved type certificate and get regular review ... not saying this makes them any better or safer than the RAA fleet but its a difference.

 

 

[ricky m]

All very confusing then..:( hence my original Q, Kasper u say two types jab certified? I thought they all were? A,B And J... Now. I am more confused lol (it dont take much)

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Basic problem is that I am not seeing how a controller on the end of a radio getting a radio call from "Medway Raven 1058" is going to know if the engine on the back is certified/approved or for a number of reason no-longer certified/approved. With most GA there is a current way to know this reasonably - they are maintained to an approved type certificate and get regular review ... not saying this makes them any better or safer than the RAA fleet but its a difference.

It's not the controllers job to make sure or police whether you are operating as per the regulations. How would they know what engine is in a RV or any of the home built kit aircraft that operate in CTA. They don't know whether a C172 has the correct MR nor do they care.

 

 

[kasper]

Agree its always down to the pilot to operate legally - but its not easy to spot the legality in some instances - eg not all 912's or Jabiru engines are equal to other 912's or jabirus and within airbourne, medway, P&M and aircreation there are trikes that have mixed models of these engine PLUS two strokes that do not meet the requirements - its a confusing situation for the pilot when they have to not only know the engine model but also its operating and maintenance histories to know if they are legal ... and just like an engine doesn't know its flying over water or tiger country it does not know its in controlled airspace either and it just either runs or not regardless

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Kasper I thought the type certification applied to the aircraft in total. As the J2200 is part of the type approved aircraft I'm not sure of any reason to distinguish one J2200 from another.....Does anyone know differently? For example, I believe (without knowing it to be fact) that the type certified J160 had a solid lifter engine, but if I was to have a type certified J160 and needed a new engine I suspect that Jabiru, knowing that it was a type certified J160 it was going into would in the new crate ship a hydraulic lifter engine for fitment.......

 

Or have I got it wrong? Its not an area I'm overly familiar with, my Jab is the 6 so doesn't suffer from that specific problem and in any event is 19 registered and is bundled up with every jabiru engine in the current mess wether in a J160C or not.......which sort of infers that the primary certification doesn't seem to count for much.....

 

 

[kasper]

Kasper I thought the type certification applied to the aircraft in total. As the J2200 is part of the type approved aircraft I'm not sure of any reason to distinguish one J2200 from another.....Does anyone know differently? For example, I believe (without knowing it to be fact) that the type certified J160 had a solid lifter engine, but if I was to have a type certified J160 and needed a new engine I suspect that Jabiru, knowing that it was a type certified J160 it was going into would in the new crate ship a hydraulic lifter engine for fitment.......Or have I got it wrong? Its not an area I'm overly familiar with, my Jab is the 6 so doesn't suffer from that specific problem and in any event is 19 registered and is bundled up with every jabiru engine in the current mess wether in a J160C or not.......which sort of infers that the primary certification doesn't seem to count for much.....

Well yes and no. The type cert on the airframe will apply but it will call out major components that require their own type cert eg engine and propellor

I will run through the easily available CASA type certificates for the Jabiru 160-C - type cert VA515

 

It requires that the engine be a:

 

- jabiru 2200B with type cert VE501 or

 

- 2200C with type cert VA501

 

so ANY jabiru 2200 not holding the appropriate certificate is not allowed to be fitted to the 160-c airframe even though it might look rather jabiru like.

 

And if you are fitted with the 2200b you have to fit the correct propeller under type certificate VP503

 

So if you are flying a Jabiru with either a 2200 that does not fit those limits and maintain their certified status in a J160-C airframe its not compliant with the aircraft as a whole TC

 

 

[ricky m]

so top bottom is yes u can fly weight shift in class D if jab or rotax 912 (not ul) and is factory built and u have the apropriate licences:) looks like i might look to start fly wieght shift out of ypjt perth :)

 

 

[kasper]

so top bottom is yes u can fly weight shift in class D if jab or rotax 912 (not ul) and is factory built and u have the apropriate licences:) looks like i might look to start fly wieght shift out of ypjt perth :)

You will have fun finding the weightshifts with jab2200s ... there was only ever the Medway Raven fitted with them and from my knowledge there is only 1 left that we did not convert to R912 at the factory/provide kits for self change in teh field. That one is in OZ somewhere but I doubt it is still flying .. but if it is get in touch, I love meeting up with other Raven owners ;-)

 

 

[eightyknots]

At Coffs, which is class D there is a flying school that flys 95.55 machines and also 95.32 machines. The CFI has a PPL which is more than an RPL but at the end of the day a 95.32 machine flys in class D.....

I wonder how (s)he gets away with that?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2015L01166 Maybe?

[Roundsounds]

https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2015L01166 Maybe?

The document behind the link is titled: "Exemption — solo flight training at Coffs Harbour Aerodrome using ultralight aeroplanes and weight shift controlled aeroplanes registered with the RAA"

The whole exemption thing makes the Class D restriction more ridiculous. Most Class D airports have RAAus FTFs operating from them under an exemption. The last quote I had from CASA was $800 for initial issue, plus a fee for renewals each 2 years.

 

Again, I ask why is it Gliders and Balloons (private Op's) are not subject to the airspace restrictions imposed upon RAAus? No requirement for motorised gliders to be fitted with certified engines, are the gas burners in the hot air balloons certified?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

It's interesting that it includes authorization for pilots operating under the CFI and not just students like most Class D operations. So you can get your RPC and still keep flying through the school/club.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

It's interesting that it includes authorization for pilots operating under the CFI and not just students like most Class D operations. So you can get your RPC and still keep flying through the school/club.

Interesting subtle difference to the other exemptions I've read. Maybe that's part of the idea of keeping individual exemptions in place.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think if you were putting on an aerial display ( for example) there would be specific conditions (exemptions) involved. I can't see THAT as a problem. The individual situation is assessed and compliance with certain specific rules required, but exemptions in respect of the "normal" restrictions. Would there be any better way of exercising authority with flexibility? Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Sorry Nev, I meant other FTF Class D exemptions. The others I've read only permit student cert holders to fly solo. Once their RPC has been issued they're banned from CTR/A unless they satisfy the minimum GA licence requirements (and aircraft certification standards).

 

 

[facthunter]

I think I have left a critical word out. or perhaps a ? to consider. I don't see compliance with ICAO to be an real issue for us. It could end up being a hindrance trying to have it. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

The document behind the link is titled: "Exemption — solo flight training at Coffs Harbour Aerodrome using ultralight aeroplanes and weight shift controlled aeroplanes registered with the RAA"The whole exemption thing makes the Class D restriction more ridiculous. Most Class D airports have RAAus FTFs operating from them under an exemption. The last quote I had from CASA was $800 for initial issue, plus a fee for renewals each 2 years.

 

Again, I ask why is it Gliders and Balloons (private Op's) are not subject to the airspace restrictions imposed upon RAAus? No requirement for motorised gliders to be fitted with certified engines, are the gas burners in the hot air balloons certified?

There are some puzzling anomalies that really need to be looked at carefully. They are made all the more ridiculous due to the many exemptions.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

There are some puzzling anomalies that really need to be looked at carefully. They are made all the more ridiculous due to the many exemptions.

I agree, amend CAOs 95.10, 95.32 and 95.55 to list the same airspace restrictions as the CAO based exemptions issued for Gliders and Hot Air Ballons..... ie NONE!