Port Lincoln accident

[fly_tornado]

 

my world class input keeps you guys on your toes

 

 

[Nobody]

Okay people you have had your fun and games including personal attacks at both my screen name (which yes, is a drug that keeps me alive on a daily basis) and on my avatar which looks nothing like me and is one I just picked off the Internet because I don't own a plane that I can proudly display a picture of.Now it's time for these half a dozen people who keep complaining to move on, I don't write the headlines that report all of these issues on a weekly basis and as they say don't shoot the messenger!

 

I only have to look through a lot of the banter on this website to come to the very solid understanding that there is a definite problem with jabiru engines.

 

Anybody could come to this same result as I could just by looking through the posts on this very website, looking through the RA-Aus website and finally looking at the CASA website where the Australian government have seen fit to make every passenger who is flying behind one of these engines sign a waiver form and impose other numerous restrictions on aircraft using these engines.

 

I don't know of any other activity, industry or pastime in Australia where the government have imposed a requirement that people must sign a declaration admitting that they could very well get killed flying behind one of these engines. This is the sole justification I need for the heading I chose for this thread.

 

To me personally it does not matter, I have never flown in a jabiru aircraft and from what I have seen I never will.

 

I have said it before and I will say it again that every single time one of these plane crashes regardless of type or cause comes up in the headlines it is one less chance for me to be allowed to continue my flight training when they come to the attention of my other half. Each and every time it becomes harder for me to say that I would like to go out to the airport and do a few more lessons because every time I get the same feedback about these death traps.

 

Stop having crashes and we won't have headlines like this and a whole lot of people like myself will be able to continue flying without needing a divorce to do so !

You say you are worried about the perception of flying being dangerous and how that will cause your other half to prevent you from flying. And yet you defend a hyper sensationalized thread title that appears to have no relevance to the actual circumstances of this event?

 

 

[horsefeathers]

my world class input keeps you guys on your toes

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...I don't know of any other activity, industry or pastime in Australia where the government have imposed a requirement that people must sign a declaration admitting that they could very well get killed flying behind one of these engines. This is the sole justification I need for the heading I chose for this thread....

Asmol if you read the extensive discussions on this forum you might see that far from being a "government" decision, the CASA directive re Jab engines was much more likely a very spiteful grenade tossed over his shoulder by a departing bureaucrat, based on dodgy statistics which they won't show us. Rather than improving safety it has come perilously close to destroying a very successful Australian industry.

 

The dodgy, unreliable car-derived engines I used to rely on were more in need of scrutiny from CASA.

 

Like any prudent aviator I assume my engine could stop at any time, but my safety has improved enormously since I fitted a Jabru engine.

 

 

[facthunter]

Basing a view on Jabiru engines on the content on this or most other online discussion would be a mistake.

 

The government didn't condemn the engines. CASA did a very poor job of administering their responsibilities as the designated AUTHORITY in relation to the issue . Their treatment of the many involved people would hardly be seen as Fair and Proportionate or Effective .

 

IF you wish to continue flying Asmol (and I hope you do) I suggest you look deeper into reliable sources of information about things concerning aviation and not just let others make claims you adopt without sufficient questioning. Nothing is black or white in this game. It's a series of judgements often of two or more less than ideal situations, and NO perfect ones that require NO judgement..Nev

 

 

[Camel]

Okay people you have had your fun and games including personal attacks at both my screen name (which yes, is a drug that keeps me alive on a daily basis) and on my avatar which looks nothing like me and is one I just picked off the Internet because I don't own a plane that I can proudly display a picture of.Now it's time for these half a dozen people who keep complaining to move on, I don't write the headlines that report all of these issues on a weekly basis and as they say don't shoot the messenger!

 

I only have to look through a lot of the banter on this website to come to the very solid understanding that there is a definite problem with jabiru engines.

 

Anybody could come to this same result as I could just by looking through the posts on this very website, looking through the RA-Aus website and finally looking at the CASA website where the Australian government have seen fit to make every passenger who is flying behind one of these engines sign a waiver form and impose other numerous restrictions on aircraft using these engines.

 

I don't know of any other activity, industry or pastime in Australia where the government have imposed a requirement that people must sign a declaration admitting that they could very well get killed flying behind one of these engines. This is the sole justification I need for the heading I chose for this thread.

 

To me personally it does not matter, I have never flown in a jabiru aircraft and from what I have seen I never will.

 

I have said it before and I will say it again that every single time one of these plane crashes regardless of type or cause comes up in the headlines it is one less chance for me to be allowed to continue my flight training when they come to the attention of my other half. Each and every time it becomes harder for me to say that I would like to go out to the airport and do a few more lessons because every time I get the same feedback about these death traps.

 

Stop having crashes and we won't have headlines like this and a whole lot of people like myself will be able to continue flying without needing a divorce to do so !

YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM NOT THE SOLUTIONS ! You have no idea of what reliability is about because years ago most Ultralight engines were two stokes, Rotax and Jabiru are the best things that ever happened ! You hurt Jabiru you can winde you watch back 20 years. If you are interested in aviation learn the facts and don't tolerate BS, and that's what you just spun and that is what the ignorant at CASA have done !

 

Please stop learning and find another sport if you want to wreck this one !

 

 

[gandalph]

my world class input keeps you guys on your toes

FT, you misspelled the 3rd word. There's no Cl.

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

Each and every time it becomes harder for me to say that I would like to go out to the airport and do a few more lessons because every time I get the same feedback about these death traps.

Emotive clap trap. Nothing is safe. Even getting out of bed can kill you. Being killed driving a car has become acceptable & doesn't even make the headlines half the time. Do you drive a car? Do you think the same thing when you go to the garage to get the car to drive somewhere? If you can't deal with the risks involved in an activity, give it up.

 

 

[rankamateur]

To me personally it does not matter, I have never flown in a jabiru aircraft and from what I have seen I never will.I have said it before and I will say it again that every single time one of these plane crashes regardless of type or cause comes up in the headlines it is one less chance for me to be allowed to continue my flight training when they come to the attention of my other half. Each and every time it becomes harder for me to say that I would like to go out to the airport and do a few more lessons because every time I get the same feedback about these death traps.

I am on the exact same page as you on all of this, but by the time your post count get up a couple of thousand, you like me will realise that the threads will get started if you are patient, and some other poor bastard can get kicked in the head for the post title he chooses out of frustration or what ever. Most of us never realise until after we have chosen a thread title that we or somebody else isn't pleased with, that there is no 20 minute edit period on them. So cool your heels and the threads will still come.

 

 

[facthunter]

The Post title stays there... Every time someone makes a new comment it keeps coming up as if it's recent and the discussion may have progressed a long way from the original TAKE. on the matter.. Nev.

 

 

[reggie]

Wow, do some people really have to get permission from their partners to go for a fly?

 

 

[facthunter]

Haven't you ever heard "either THAT BIKE goes or I do".? Hasn't happened to me I must add. OR "He will stop drinking , once we are together" Even though he may have a greater need to drink.

 

When you walk into the church it's spelled out. Aisle Altar Hymn..Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

Wow, do some people really have to get permission from their partners to go for a fly?

It certainly isn't mandatory but it definitely makes life a bit more pleasant once the flight is over! After all some of us married pilots aren't arrogant chauvinistic chaps and we can actually appreciate that our partners can have opinions too. (Not saying that I'm not an arrogant chauvinist but just saying that we all can't be:wink:)

As Nev said earlier the title stays but the thread can take some interesting changes which render a lot of thread titles totally irrelevant to what is actually being discussed. It's just with the whole Jab thing there is an awful lot of emotion from both sides, which is totally understandable really when you have passionate owners and owners who passionately hate them and then the non owners who aren't really impressed with their reputation.

 

I think to be fair to Asmol, he had heard a report that sounded like an engine failure so the title would have made sense to him at that time. In hindsight maybe he would have titled it different but who here hasn't posted something in the heat of the moment that they have later edited, or wished they could edit?

 

As far as ruining jabs reputation goes, Internet forums these days do have a lot more clout than in years past BUT even before I was learning (2012 I think was when I learnt) I knew about the unreliability of jabs and I wasn't on any forums at that stage. That was all just word of mouth and my wife was also fairly adamant about me not flying behind one. Yes of course they can all fail but there is no harm in stacking the odds in your favour.

 

I still like the jab airframe and I do hope that they have sorted the engine issues so that they can turn their image around to a good reliable Aussie product. It is hard though as all it takes is for one engine, that hasn't had the upgrades done, to fail and that keeps painting all the newer engines with the same brush. For that matter as we can see here all it takes is for a jab to have a hard landing (I'm not saying it had a hard landing but it seems those in the know are saying the plane and engine were not at fault so I guess it had a hard landing but don't take my conjecture as truth!) for us to start discussing how good/bad they are:bash:

 

 

[red750]

Even getting out of bed can kill you.

You don't even have to get out of bed. When your number's up, your number's up. Method is what is convenient at the time.

 

A close shave means your time wasn't up, just a warning to take care. Even with cancer, your time is not necessarily up. Many live for years after cancer, others don't. I had a car accident which ripped the front off the car. I wasn't even dazed. My time wasn't up. I collapsed with a heart problem. Got a pacemaker, 2 years ago. My time wasn't up. I had cancer 18 months ago, keep getting the all clear (for now), my number is not up yet. Maybe next time. Take care.

 

 

[facthunter]

So... Nothing you do makes any difference? It's all about when your numbers up. You have to be kidding . In any case, I doubt everyone looks at it that way or else there's little point in being careful or checking anything and I just cannot accept that way of looking at things as it appears it could be a sort of cop out. It might ease your anxiety, but I have found you make your own luck in life, and even in nature the wary animal lives longer. Nev

 

 

[bull]

Sorry to all for putting my two cents worth in,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT i am only going on my own expierience at flight training and talking airplanes at the field with other {high time ] pilots including an l4 instructor that thought he loved jabirus {that changed after an event repeated itself several times at great risk to life and limb]and a family member who would not use one to power an airboat [he hates paddling]and has been flying since the gemini days . so sorry to the Australian economy that will go down the drain because i will not support a product with a dismal record ,{reminds me of the time tarago vans were all catching fire event in the 80,s] So no apology from me to the jab lovers ,,,jabirus record speaks for it self,.now before i get shot down in flames have a think about the record of bull terriers in the dog world for a minute to compare,,,,,,Now i have owned a bull terrier and a sweeter dog you would not find,,BUT it,s record of attacking children speaks for itself,,would you let your kids play with an unknown bull terrier ???or would you err on the side of caution hmmmm

 

 

[facthunter]

I can't see it's a matter of jab loving or hating. I do neither. It can be improved (everything can). There's always been a lot of them flying across Australia. Just get real info and act on it as you see fit. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

BUT even before I was learning (2012 I think was when I learnt) I knew about the unreliability of jabs and I wasn't on any forums at that stage.

I started hearing bad things about Jabiru in about 1992 and it has gone right through to now, to me the point here is the poster assumed the accident was the fault of Jabiru when he really did not know if it was.

 

 

[Chris Tarran]

I'VE HAD ENOUGH!!!!Putting sh|t on Australian companies like Jabiru is the bloody reason every consumer product we buy in Australia is made overseas, and our own people are scratching around for work.

 

Jabiru might not be the best engine manufacturer in the world, but I can take you to a cairn at Camden Airport that is a memorial to a group of people who lost their lives because a big American aero engine manufacturer failed to pass on critical engine build specification to the aviation world.

 

If you hate Jabirus, please, for the sake of Australia's future economic sovereignty, refrain from puttin sh|t on them.

 

Old Man Emu

 

PS: ASMOL is the commercial name for a brand of asthma control drug. So I suppose you could say that the person on this forum using that screen name is a whinging wheezer - OME

I agree absolutely. Google Whyalla Airlines Flight 904. Multiple engine failures and 8 fatalities in 2000. ATSB blamed the operator and CASA pursued them and put them out of business to the detriment of this area. A later coronial enquiry overturned the finding and placed the blame squarely on the engine manufacturer who subsequently grounded some 1000 aircraft for repair at a cost of $66M

 

So Jabiru are not the only aircraft engine manufacturer to experience failures costing lives.

 

Despite all the huffing and puffing I've read about how bad Jabiru engines are supposed to be no-one (including CASA) has shown me any statistics that prove anything conclusively. In my view if CASA wish to impose the conditions that they have an Jabiru powered aircraft they should be made to prove why, publicly.

 

Most of the problems reported on this site are anecdotal and therefore suspect from the start.

 

The fact remains that in RAAUs we all fly single engined piston aircraft and our safety dictates that we should plan and fly as if the fan can stop at any time.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

 

[kgwilson]

I agree absolutely. Google Whyalla Airlines Flight 904. Multiple engine failures and 8 fatalities in 2000. ATSB blamed the operator and CASA pursued them and put them out of business to the detriment of this area. A later coronial enquiry overturned the finding and placed the blame squarely on the engine manufacturer who subsequently grounded some 1000 aircraft for repair at a cost of $66MSo Jabiru are not the only aircraft engine manufacturer to experience failures costing lives.

That is just it. It is assumed that failures of Jabiru engines have cost lives but that is in fact incorrect. There have been no fatalities attributable to an engine failure in a Jabiru. That can be attributed to the strength of the airframe and its ability to absorb the impact protecting the occupants and good airmanship on the part of the pilot putting the aircraft down safely.

 

 

[Chris Tarran]

That is just it. It is assumed that failures of Jabiru engines have cost lives but that is in fact incorrect. There have been no fatalities attributable to an engine failure in a Jabiru. That can be attributed to the strength of the airframe and its ability to absorb the impact protecting the occupants and good airmanship on the part of the pilot putting the aircraft down safely.

Accepted. Perhaps I should have said "failures causing injury or". Remiss on my part.

 

 

[red750]

I just cannot accept that way of looking at things

How else would you explain someone surviving risky endeavours, but dying doing something well within their capabilities, and which by comparison would appear to be far more routine. For example, I refer to the case of Steve Fossett.

 

Take care by all means, as I said before, no need to be foolhardy.

 

 

[Teckair]

I agree absolutely. Google Whyalla Airlines Flight 904. Multiple engine failures and 8 fatalities in 2000. ATSB blamed the operator and CASA pursued them and put them out of business to the detriment of this area. A later coronial enquiry overturned the finding and placed the blame squarely on the engine manufacturer who subsequently grounded some 1000 aircraft for repair at a cost of $66M

When that Piper lost power with the first engine over York Peninsular there was more than one airport where it could have safely landed, but the pilot tried to fly to Whyalla on one engine. In that situation the remaining engine could not handle the extra load and blew up as well. Just imagine the cost and inconvenience to the airline operators if the safe thing was done and it was landed on York Peninsular. Prior to this, aircraft with engine problems had been safely landed at the nearest airport but because of the inconvenience in that situation pilots were told to bring the plane back to Whyalla on one engine which is criminal. I don't care what the coronial enquiry did these guys had blood on their hands and not only should have been shut down but gaoled as well.

 

 

[ben87r]

Do you know of the location of the first engine failure? Fom my understanding of where it happened there would only have been one other suitable aerodrome which wouldn't have been much closer if any, if that was the case I also would have returned to base.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

you keep forgetting CASA would have had to have a look at Jabiru's engine rebuild book at some time, hence the restrictions.