Port Lincoln accident

[Teckair]

Do you know of the location of the first engine failure? Fom my understanding of where it happened there would only have been one other suitable aerodrome which wouldn't have been much closer if any, if that was the case I also would have returned to base.

Over York Peninsular, I was told by a commercial pilot there were 3 options on York Peninsular all much closer than Whyalla. I will have to check which they most likely were.

 

 

[Chris Tarran]

Over York Peninsular, I was told by a commercial pilot there were 3 options on York Peninsular all much closer than Whyalla. I will have to check which they most likely were.

Judging from the ATC and other records included in the coronial enquiry MZK would have been more than half way over Spencer Gulf when the Mayday call was made. In that case the only other option would have been a 90 degree right turn to Port Pirie which was probably as far but with the last bit over land. Either way they were going to be in water on a horrible evening in ordinary weather.

 

 

[ben87r]

From my understanding of where the first one was lost (it's not very clear and mine is based on time and groundspeeed) he wold have been near half way but on the AD side, the only option that I can see would have been Port Pirie, which would have been a good option and with 20/20 hindsight I believe where he should have gone but on the night I think I would have taken a maintenance base only slightly further, because, what's the chances of a second engine failure right?

 

There would have been cleve but having to cross the gulf I wouldn't have made that choice.

 

As a third option a turn back to Edinburgh but once again I think with a small benefit I would have continued.

 

This is all based on my belief of how things occurred on the night and as mentioned earlier there are a few differing beliefs as to how things when down but it's an accident where if it had of happened slightly earlier different decisions would have been made.

 

The commercial pressure to return to a base is a real one but one that a prudent pilot would ignore as soon as there was a safety concern. But with an extra 10-15Nm to return to a base where you have maintenance, fuel, accomodation, passenger facility's I would say most if not nearly all pilots would have done the same.

 

 

[gandalph]

you keep forgetting CASA would have had to have a look at Jabiru's engine rebuild book at some time, hence the restrictions.

What?!

 

 

[ben87r]

Judging from the ATC and other records included in the coronial enquiry MZK would have been more than half way over Spencer Gulf when the Mayday call was made. In that case the only other option would have been a 90 degree right turn to Port Pirie which was probably as far but with the last bit over land. Either way they were going to be in water on a horrible evening in ordinary weather.

Chris you are quite correct but the Mayday call wasn't made in till the loss of the second engine. The first in my opinion was lost around 15min after departure when the groundspeed significantly reduces on radar and a move off track as well.

 

 

[Teckair]

I can't find the aerodromes on York Peninsular I thought would be there.

 

I was in the area at the time and knew two people on the plane everything I stated in post 98 I got from the news and people I thought were reliable.

 

The last thing I would want to do is state untrue stuff.

 

 

[coljones]

I dont think Amsol needs to apologise about the title,,as i think there is A LARGE number of pilots that fly behind an engine with the name of jabiru on it {some have no real choice as training aircraft where they fly have them installed] That be they good or be they not have real spincter flucuations at the slightest change in note as they fly ,,,BECAUSE of their past record ,,an undeniably bad one at that ,,,,,,,,And past performance speaks for it,s self don,t you think?.................................

Is it a past bad record or just a CASA perception (egged on by some ill-informed rock chuckers on the sidelines)

 

 

[Chris Tarran]

Chris you are quite correct but the Mayday call wasn't made in till the loss of the second engine. The first in my opinion was lost around 15min after departure when the groundspeed significantly reduces on radar and a move off track as well.

The coronial document shows that the pilot reduced power on the right engine which caused a yaw to the right at that time but NOT that it stopped. The coroner concludes that the aircraft wouldn't be able to maintain the airspeed it did (remember it's still on ATC radar) on one engine. The first engine failure was the left one. The right engine failed shortly after. The document is readily available for download and makes interesting reading.

 

Teckair I also know people involved in the incident, both the operator's and the family of some of the victims. Interesting no-one round here bears any ill will toward Whyalla Airlines.

 

 

[Teckair]

Could Kadina have been a possibility? It's got lights.

 

 

[facthunter]

With the jabiru logbooks, It has been explained many times that an offer to rebuild at a certain point in time is cheaper than part rectification/overhaul and better value for money. This has been used unfairly against Jabiru as indication of engine failure requiring engine replacement , which it isn't..

 

... The Whyalla incident has been fully investigated The requirement is to land at the nearest SUITABLE aerodrome. Many factors would come into that. Terrain passed over, difference in time to get there runway length, X wind component at destination Fire fighting etc. In cruise a twin such as a Navajo should have no trouble maintaining a safe height on one engine The temps should be manageable at all times. There was a metallurgical problem with the crankshaft(s), but also some bearings were floating in the cases and damaging the radius's on the mainbearing journals. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

Kadina would have been a good option if it was fitted with lights, I never knew Kadina had lights and from memory it's rather short? I no longer have any plates on it.

 

 

[ben87r]

Chris wether the engine stopped or not there was a power loss enough to lose 35kn of airspeed. The decision to divert or not would have been made at this time.

 

 

[ben87r]

After re reading some of the report as it had been a while both Port And Kadina were considered by the ATSB but neither had an intrument approach at the time, but teck you are right it was fitted with lighting and PAL at the time

 

 

[bull]

Is it a past bad record or just a CASA perception (egged on by some ill-informed rock chuckers on the sidelines)

A true past record of through bolt failures,and head issues that have caused outlandings/crashes ,,,,just look up the casa records of incedences and the name ::jabiru ""with the words ""engine failure ,,beside it ,,,,,sorry about telling the ::truth""

 

 

[Teckair]

In cruise a twin such as a Navajo should have no trouble maintaining a safe height on one engine

I imagine you would have more idea about this stuff than me. I always thought piston engine twins are dodgy on one motor especially the Chieftain. I have been told more than once you are lucky if you can maintain height and landing as soon as possible is best.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well it's already cleaned up and used fuel so it's in a less hazardous situation than just after take off, which is supposed to be taken care of by the charts. It's quite a good airframe and was used in new Guinea in the 60's. You have to look after the engines tempwise. They are a bit close cowled but shouldn't be a problem without high country to pass over. I think some of the talk is a bit sensationalised. Any failure before blue line means you lower the nose (if you can) or close the other throttle to stop turning and rolling , as you don't have enough rudder, but that applies to all twins. They work to certified weights and the intial climb gradient is usually the most critical, but you may have a mountain range en route that requires a return, as you can't get over it, engine out. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

Interesting no-one round here bears any ill will toward Whyalla Airlines.

Shortly after the accident the operators attended a memorial service for those that died and they were made unwelcome.

 

 

[Teckair]

from memory it's rather short?

Probably at least 1000 metres or it wouldn't have lights.

 

 

[Teckair]

what's the chances of a second engine failure right?

Pretty good I think considering how hard it would be working. Someone tried to fly a twin back home to Bankstown on one engine a few years ago and sadly did not make it.

 

 

[poteroo]

It's quite a good airframe and was used in new Guinea in the 60's.

To the best of my knowledge, the 2 PA-31's in PNG back then were PA-31-310 Navajo, (VH-PNK, VH-PNL). They appear to have been more reliable than the later PA-31-350 Chieftain engines.

 

 

[facthunter]

All these twins are certified under the same engine out formula. If loaded within limits they will fly on one engine. If they didn't they would be less safe than a single. Most of the accidents with twins is flying them if a motor fails at the critical speed and you get below VMC(a) or don't trim it out correctly and it won't perform.

 

SOME Lycomings had a metallurgical problem with the cranks which were replaced by the company.

 

This idea twins won't fly on one engine is old hat. It applied to earlier things like an Anson (no feathering capability) and Miles and DH aircraft similarly. If it doesn't feather and have retracts it likely won't fly on one. Nev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I think the Piper Apache was in that group.

 

 

[ben87r]

Pretty good I think considering how hard it would be working. Someone tried to fly a twin back home to Bankstown on one engine a few years ago and sadly did not make it.

IF, the engine fails out of a take off situation the second shouldn't be working much harder then normal, it isn't like T/O power is set just to maintain cruise or descent, if it fails after take of tho it will be a high power setting until all terrain has been cleared. I usually get the power on the live engine back as soon as I safely can to reduce the asymmetric loads (read my leg starts hurting!)

 

This idea twins won't fly on one engine is old hat

While I agree that they SHOULD perform Nev, I wouldn't like a EFATO in a C402/PA 31-350 heavy and hot, the book figures are not amazing and they were tested in the 60's with new aircraft

 

 

[facthunter]

True if the plane has degraded with age it won't perform as new but in cruise you need much less power than at take off where you use the lot and you have also burned off a fair bit of fuel, and the aircraft is "clean" unless you have a smashed cowl because bits of engine hit it.

 

Limit performance is not much for any aircraft. density altitude is accounted for in the charts and headwind runway slope etc. The plane has to make a minimum climb gradient. Not just fly but climb. They want to make money out of them, so if it will fly, take it away Ace. Remember if it's overloaded YOU are to blame .Nev

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Ummm as a jab driver I'll take a wheat field every time over trees......I mean if I was able to guarantee between the trees then Ok....but no matter how well publicized the crashworthiness of a Jab I never want to run one head on into a tree trunk or major branch.......That choice is about survival and bugger the impacts to the aircraft.....

So would I. (choose a wheat field over trees). Your reply seems to suggest I'd prefer trees! A friends Savannah was destroyed when it crashed at low speed into a canola crop. Another friends Jabiru 230 has been flipped over, run into a hangar and suffered a few other assaults but being fibreglass was easily and safely repaired each time.