Geoff13 Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And a positive for having a BRS on board. Two fellow aviators would not be with us today without it. Two people who have had the opportunity to learn from a mistake which may have easily had a far worse result. 2
pylon500 Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It also suggests that Pipistrel thought about reasons why one would deploy a chute, and ripping the wings off must have occurred to them, thereby deciding to attach the chute to part of the airframe determined to stay intact after ripping off said wings !! Good thought for all designers out there........ 1
alf jessup Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Don't bother ever with lotto tickets lads you have used all your luck up in life, to be IMC and lucky enough to be over a valley when you ripped the wings off is just sheer luck. Another BRS saves the day
Marty_d Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Don't bother ever with lotto tickets lads you have used all your luck up in life, to be IMC and lucky enough to be over a valley when you ripped the wings off is just sheer luck.Another BRS saves the day I dunno Alf - if I was them I'd go straight to the nearest outlet and buy a lotto ticket, just in case they were on the biggest roll ever!
alf jessup Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I dunno Alf - if I was them I'd go straight to the nearest outlet and buy a lotto ticket, just in case they were on the biggest roll ever! Point taken Marty, very fair call
jetjr Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Whats the height of the mountains they nearly hit? They climbed 7500 ft Very lucky the valley was where it was. 1
eightyknots Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 The aircraft surpassed its maximum permitted operating speed of 163 kts (302 km/h) and reached 240 kts (445 km/h) indicated airspeed when the crew began to recover the extreme nose-down inverted attitude. . . That's insane; close to the speed of a Stuka dive bomber in action!
Ada Elle Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 The wings on that plane are removable, so the BRS cannot be attached to them. The real question is, why did they not activate the BRS when the ASI hit Vne+20%? You know you're in trouble at that point, you know that you might hit some cumulus granitus at any time... pull the chute before the wings come off! Also, that report doesn't say if the dive brakes were activated. (When I flew a Pipistrel with a chute into the oaks a couple of months back I initiated the discussion of: when inadvertently IMC, when do you pull the chute? My answer was: immediately once you are below LSALT or above Vne.)
fly_tornado Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 the old panic and try to fly out of it syndrome.
kasper Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 The wings on that plane are removable, so the BRS cannot be attached to them.The real question is, why did they not activate the BRS when the ASI hit Vne+20%? You know you're in trouble at that point, you know that you might hit some cumulus granitus at any time... pull the chute before the wings come off! Also, that report doesn't say if the dive brakes were activated. (When I flew a Pipistrel with a chute into the oaks a couple of months back I initiated the discussion of: when inadvertently IMC, when do you pull the chute? My answer was: immediately once you are below LSALT or above Vne.) I can think of a few reasons: 1. try to fly out of it (get home itish) 2. as the G built past 10 who is to say that they were not at that point on the verge of G blackout - grey out can easily occcur from 5G up and once it starts your reactions and thoughts get fuzzy (plus it was only a second or two delay) 3. they may have been going for the red handle as the G built as they started pulling out - how quickly the progressed from high G - goodbye wings - pull red handle is very short And as for parachute attached to wings - that is not how to install - the bridle is always attached to the passenger cell and the mounting of the parachute pack/canister is remote from there and you route the cable back through/across airframe/covering that is considered sacrificial. 3
fly_tornado Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 my BRS's harness attaches to the landing gear 1
kasper Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 my BRS's harness attaches to the landing gear wow! so you expect to be arriving up side down under the chute if you have to pull the red handle? Installation guides from BRS and Junkers both advise aiming for an attitude under canopy of upright and nose low - can't see that with it attached to the undercart ... unless the canister is down there with the bridle cable running to frames above ... 1
Marty_d Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 wow! so you expect to be arriving up side down under the chute if you have to pull the red handle?Installation guides from BRS and Junkers both advise aiming for an attitude under canopy of upright and nose low - can't see that with it attached to the undercart ... unless the canister is down there with the bridle cable running to frames above ... The 701 rear attachments are the undercart too (routed up through the fuselage), the front attachments are the cabin frame at the top of the windshield. http://zenair.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/5/9/3759177/701-brs-chute.pdf I can't imagine any setup that has the BRS attached to the wings, it defeats the whole purpose when catastrophic structural failure (as happened in this situation) is one of the primary reasons to have one.
fly_tornado Posted October 20, 2015 Author Posted October 20, 2015 wow! so you expect to be arriving up side down under the chute if you have to pull the red handle?Installation guides from BRS and Junkers both advise aiming for an attitude under canopy of upright and nose low - can't see that with it attached to the undercart ... unless the canister is down there with the bridle cable running to frames above ... no it exits out the rear of the wing, so landing slightly nose down
kasper Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 OK - so on the 701 the rear bridle attaches at the legs - base of the "people cage"and the front attaches to the front top of the people cage - sounds good for upright descent nose low - on a drifter if its attached to the landing gear but exiting the rear of the wing ... bit head scratchie here - unless its attached to the top of the Aframe between the two people (ie at the leading edge of the wing as well as the legs) nose low is going to have the bridle in the space the rear person sits in ... Hmmmm
Ada Elle Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 reached 240 kts (445 km/h) indicated airspeed when the crew began to recover the extreme nose-down inverted attitude. This is the point where I wouldn't have tried to recover, but would have pulled the chute instead. You've flown 50% past Vne. You can't trust any part of the airframe to still be there.
eightyknots Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 my BRS's harness attaches to the landing gear You're pulling our legs, F-T 3
Happyflyer Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 This is the point where I wouldn't have tried to recover, but would have pulled the chute instead.You've flown 50% past Vne. You can't trust any part of the airframe to still be there. Including the part attached to the chute! It could be argued you pull the chute as soon as you start to lose control in cloud. Or even better don't get in there in the first place. 1
SDQDI Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 The trouble is the human link in the equation. If we have got ourselves inadvertently into IMC then we have obviously let ourselves get into the mindset of going a bit further than we should have so I would think if we still had the wings on we would be kidding ourselves that we might still get out of it.
fly_tornado Posted October 21, 2015 Author Posted October 21, 2015 imagine your bumping your way through the clouds and then one wing stalls due to ice build up and you compensate with aileron
facthunter Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Once you got so fast the wings were coming off the operation of the chute wasn't guaranteed either. The plane is out of control and it's gone very pear shaped. It's usually a spiral (not a spin, where the speed doesn't build up) that causes the problem, structurally. Nev
Ada Elle Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Including the part attached to the chute! It could be argued you pull the chute as soon as you start to lose control in cloud. Or even better don't get in there in the first place. That is when I would pull the chute, yes - but an instrument rated pilot *might* think that they can recover from unusual attitudes in cloud. I don't see how you could possibly justify not pulling the chute once you're at Vne+50%, though. The part attached to the chute is a kevlar cockpit frame.
DWF Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 The attached document is from the Virus flight manual. HOW FAST IS TOO FAST An interesting read. DWF Virus - How fast is too fast.pdf Virus - How fast is too fast.pdf Virus - How fast is too fast.pdf
jakej Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Maybe I'm missing something here but why not just fit an autopilot instead ? They are much more cost effective & don't have the huge ongoing cost of re certifying or checking the chute . Dynon now have a LEVEL button ( if the aircraft gets 'out of shape') just press it & the A/pilot will fly wings level again. Garmin also have one used on expensive aircraft like the Cirrus & a less expensive unit too. I'd suggest this is the simplest solution & the autopilot will make life easier 1 1
Ada Elle Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 What happens when the gyros feeding the autopilot tumble?
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