Pipistrel Virus pulls chute

[fly_tornado]

because an autopilot won't get ice off your wing, that plane stalled for a reason.

 

 

[Oscar]

What happens when the gyros feeding the autopilot tumble?

Solid state 'gyros' tumble? How?

 

 

[jakej]

What happens when the gyros feeding the autopilot tumble?

Now that we are in the 21st century there have been some inventions you may have missed - silicone chip gyros & accelerometers ? The best part is the Dynon & Trio ( maybe others) can default to a minimum or maximum airspeed ie , when autopilot engaged, if you're climbing it will default to minimum airspeed set if the rate is et too high & aircraft is not capable of the sustained climb rate OR if you command a descent rate that could result in a very high airspeed, it will establish & maintain the max speed set in setup menu.

 

You ask about ICE - don't go there !! These autopilots will still hold wings level .

 

 

[kasper]

Maybe I'm missing something here but why not just fit an autopilot instead ?They are much more cost effective & don't have the huge ongoing cost of re certifying or checking the chute .

 

Dynon now have a LEVEL button ( if the aircraft gets 'out of shape') just press it & the A/pilot will fly wings level again. Garmin also have one used on expensive aircraft like the Cirrus & a less expensive unit too.

 

I'd suggest this is the simplest solution & the autopilot will make life easier

Maybe because we are trying to fly recreational light aviation and an autopilot is sort of antithetical to the concept of recreational flying

I KNOW that many of the high end RAAus aircraft might use one effectively ... but I am an old school RAAus(AUF) pilot and while I fondly remember the bliss of a bungee trim bias to unload a straight and level stick load I am not looking for the added weight and cost of any form of autopilot ... I fly these aircraft for recreation and the costs of the plastic fantastics are already well beyond what I can reasonably see as recreational - some are getting up towards the cost of my house.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Maybe we need to stay out of situations that call for the need of an autopilot in the first place

 

 

[jetjr]

Yes, icing, 250kts descent, aint going to end well

 

AP would weigh less than a BRS and in Dynon case comes with full EFIS too

 

 

[DrZoos]

Maybe $6-7 k is worth it to some as insurance for life, loved ones and all sorts of possibilities. Failures, mishaps. Planning etc. for me as a co owner with my old man and my son flying it as well, its a no brainer if they would allow an mtow 15 kg increase. $3500 for a chute that is likely to stop a fatality. Well worth it imho

 

 

[kasper]

Maybe $6-7 k is worth it to some as insurance for life, loved ones and all sorts of possibilities. Failures, mishaps. Planning etc. for me as a co owner with my old man and my son flying it as well, its a no brainer if they would allow an mtow 15 kg increase. $3500 for a chute that is likely to stop a fatality. Well worth it imho

Agreed - the weight of a BRS installation addresses not just the AVOIDABLE failures of flying outside the safe/certified/sane flight envelope as would be the case IF an autopilot is installed AND used (no guarrantee these apply when you are prepared to fly in IMC without an aircraft or pilot fitted for it) BUT also covers the avoidable/unavoidable issues under the class of 'Other' where the option to bring the aircraft down with damage but you alive is available with a chute

 

 

[DrZoos]

chute might help in

 

Power loss

 

Fuel starvation

 

Fuel exhaustion

 

Lost

 

Darkness ??

 

Lightning strike

 

Spin

 

Spiral

 

Imc

 

Over cloud or fog or smoke

 

Airframe failure

 

Major Airframe damage eg bird, collision

 

Control issues or failure

 

Severe turbulance

 

Pilot incapacitation

 

Icing

 

Serious Illness

 

Etc

 

 

[Marty_d]

Maybe I'm missing something here but why not just fit an autopilot instead ?They are much more cost effective & don't have the huge ongoing cost of re certifying or checking the chute .

 

Dynon now have a LEVEL button ( if the aircraft gets 'out of shape') just press it & the A/pilot will fly wings level again. Garmin also have one used on expensive aircraft like the Cirrus & a less expensive unit too.

 

I'd suggest this is the simplest solution & the autopilot will make life easier

Because if you have structural failure an autopilot won't be any more use than a regular one. The chute will save lives in a variety of situations. Autopilot may keep the aircraft level in IMC but won't help if a strut bolt fails or the engine stops over tiger country.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Maybe we need to stay out of situations that call for the need of an autopilot in the first place

Maybe all drivers of cars should avoid accidents as well. Reality is accidents occur. Sure do everything to avoid it, but they can and will still happen.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Agreed - the weight of a BRS installation addresses not just the AVOIDABLE failures of flying outside the safe/certified/sane flight envelope as would be the case IF an autopilot is installed AND used (no guarrantee these apply when you are prepared to fly in IMC without an aircraft or pilot fitted for it) BUT also covers the avoidable/unavoidable issues under the class of 'Other' where the option to bring the aircraft down with damage but you alive is available with a chute

Correct Kasper,

 

I flew my trikes for over 400 hrs before I fitted a chute, I had complete faith in my machine and abilities, but it is the unexpected things out of the blue you don't think about was the main reason i fitted one, very very close call with an Ibis and my leading edge one day and that changed my mind.

 

Cheap insurance for another shot at life if the thing was needed to save my bacon, I flew no different that I did previously once I fitted it.

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

Maybe all drivers of cars should avoid accidents as well. Reality is accidents occur. Sure do everything to avoid it, but they can and will still happen.

DrZoo's

 

Maybe having an autopilot might encourage people to push the boundaries a bit farther too in marginal conditions, all good if your already an instrument rated pilot

 

Alf

 

 

[Dieselten]

So many "exceedences" in the report, but it all comes back to just one exceedence which precipitated all the others - the pilot exceeded his own capabilities which then caused a series of events which caused the aircraft to exceed its design limits.

 

As I remarked before, the pilot failed long before the airframe did. All the ballistic parachute has done (besides saving a passenger) is allowed the survival of a pilot who at least might learn the lessons -but not knowing the individual concerned personally, I can't be too optimistic about that.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

so what price do you put on a passenger's life?

 

 

[DrZoos]

As I remarked before, the pilot failed long before the airframe did.

That's the entire pont behind chutes - things including pilots fail - then chutes save lives ..its a circular debate

 

There will always be some people who say, you shouldn't need one, you should do ...........

 

But the reality is there are none or very few cases where having a chute in the aircraft has been suggested or proven to cause the pilot to be more reckless or die, other than maintenance accidents

 

There are now hundreds of documented cases of chutes saving lives, this makes around 500+ lives saved from chutes, 324 saved from BRS alone see http://www.brsaerospace.com/lives_saved.aspx

 

around 2000 plus direct family members spared the unimaginable grief.. around 40,000 close extended family members, 100,000 friends and fellow flying colleagues...

 

I really think this is something we should be embracing as a community...not forcing on anybody, but embracing those that do choose rather than stigmatising them as reckless or poorer pilots

 

 

[Geoff13]

There is no need to die because of a mistake if there is a way to save your own and your passengers life then why not use it.

 

I have met many people who thought that they were perfect and would or could never make a mistake but I am yet to meet the one those who was correct in their own self assessment.

 

Some of those are no longer with us but could be had they realised that they were not perfect.

 

If I ever make a mistake up there I know I would like my wife and if possible me to survive through my error. If a BRS can do that then it is an option that I need to consider.

 

And apart from that I have been into airfields where there were 7 aircraft in an uncontrolled circuit. I would hate to think that someone in my care should die because of someone elses error if there is an alternative.

 

I know I am not perfect and watching some other people out there I know that not everyone that I meet in the air is perfect (in fact same are downright dangerous). Anything that can be done to increase my safety is worth consideration.

 

The bonus on paper is with my aircraft when fitted with a BRS it gets an extra 22.5kgs on the mtow, the chute weighs approx 15kgs. I think thats a pretty fair deal.

 

 

[DrZoos]

The bonus on paper is with my aircraft when fitted with a BRS it gets an extra 22.5kgs on the mtow, the chute weighs approx 15kgs. I think thats a pretty fair deal.

Geoff why is it some aircraft get an increased MTOW allowance for fitting a chute and others dont?

 

 

[DrZoos]

The pioneer of accident epidemiology, Professor Susan Baker, has this to say: ‘We tend to focus all our interest on an event rather than on the human damage we are trying to prevent. It also evokes questions of who is to blame, and that is almost always counterproductive. The big question is: “How do you keep people from getting hurt?”’ http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2014/09/swinging-in-the-wind/

 

In 2014, with just under 6,000 airplanes in the fleet flying an estimated 1,000,000 flight hours, there were only 3 fatal Cirrus accidents. Considering the demanding weather conditions many of these airplanes operate in, that’s an impressively low number. This isn’t a fluke either: the number of fatal Cirrus accidents has dropped from a pretty awful 16 in 2011 to 10 in 2012, then 9 in 2013.

 

The numbers tell quite a story. While fatal accidents have been dropping, the number of CAPS deployments have been increasing. In fact, 2014 marked the first time the two curves crossed, with more CAPS events (12) than fatal accidents (3). This is significant, because while pulling the red handle may total the airplane, the pilot and passengers will almost always survive if it’s done within the limitations of the system. Out of 51 total CAPS events, there have been 104 survivors and only one fatality.

 

http://airfactsjournal.com/2015/02/fatal-cirrus-crashes-way-thank-parachute/

 

 

[Geoff13]

Geoff why is it some aircraft get an increased MTOW allowance for fitting a chute and others dont?

I can't answer the question a to why. I can only assume (yes I know) that the aircraft was built to a stronger standard and we are being given some of that back in the trade off.

 

I would suspect that if an airframe was built to an absolute mtow then there would be no room to give any more but if the mtow was a paper one due to regulations then there could be room for movement.

 

I guess an email to the tech people could answer that question better than me, but it was one of the things that I did check on before buying my plane.

 

 

[dazza 38]

There are fors and againsts having a BRS chute, but I think every pilot who ever finds themselves in a situation where they have been a silly billy and the airframe is bending and creaking, the airspeed is increasing and they come to the sudden realation that they are out of control and don't have the skills to save themselves or their aircraft.

 

Will be thankful that their aircraft has a recovery chute and all the have to do is pull the handle.

 

 

[jetjr]

A few points from an old thread, i think the descent speed under brs is around 45 kts, similar to RAA stall, therefore in most situations your going to arrive at similar speeds

 

Exception of course being structural failure of incapacitation, now the frequency of these is very low.

 

Along with restricted pax and the reality that something 80%?? Of flights are pilot only, the risk reduces as each factor included.

 

A strong passenger cell or better seatbelts, fire extinguisher could be just as important as far as changing outcomes. Maybe some low vis training might cover many events for less and applicable to any aircraft.

 

The Virus accident is one of those few cases where despite how hard pilot tried he survived

 

 

[Happyflyer]

A few points from an old thread, i think the descent speed under brs is around 45 kts, similar to RAA stall, therefore in most situations your going to arrive at similar speedsException of course being structural failure of incapacitation, now the frequency of these is very low.

Along with restricted pax and the reality that something 80%?? Of flights are pilot only, the risk reduces as each factor included.

 

A strong passenger cell or better seatbelts, fire extinguisher could be just as important as far as changing outcomes. Maybe some low vis training might cover many events for less and applicable to any aircraft.

 

The Virus accident is one of those few cases where despite how hard pilot tried he survived

Hitting the ground at 45 knots (83 kph) descent rate may not be survivable. This site http://www.brsaerospace.com/faq.aspx says the descent rate is in the order of 21 ft/min (which is about 13 knots) at zero forward speed.

 

 

[jetjr]

Dunno, got this info from old discussion and was based around Cirrus, the point was withou airframe. Seats etc designed to absorb the arrival its still going to hurt

 

 

[Marty_d]

Hitting the ground at 45 knots (83 kph) descent rate may not be survivable. This site http://www.brsaerospace.com/faq.aspx says the descent rate is in the order of 21 ft/min (which is about 13 knots) at zero forward speed.

I think you mean 21 ft/sec, a feather floats down faster than 21 ft/min.

 

There would be shock absorption from the nose-down attitude too, the noseleg has some spring / collapsibility followed by the main gear flex, so the actual impact forces wouldn't be too bad. Works out to 23 km/h. You wouldn't be too concerned about hitting a fixed object in a car at that speed.