Yaw is no Yawning Matter

[aro]

If you incline that lift vector to one side by banking the aircraft, it moves (accelerates) towards the way the lift is tilted. It has commenced a turn because of the applied force.

Agree. Therefore, if the nose is stationary on the horizon you must be uncoordinated.

 

 

[facthunter]

Without going into it too deeply I think you would have to pitch forward to neutral lift position of the stick . The plane would have to roll on it's axis, and tend to go slowly into a dive at the same time as it rolled.. Nev

 

 

[Contact Flying]

Nev,

 

What do you think of the Ercoupe. When I was a young teacher on the Navajo Reservation and had little money I bought my first airplane, and Ercoupe, for $1,430.00. Like most young pilots I though this was not enough airplane for me, but it really flew well. Now I think it is a fine airplane.

 

Jim

 

 

[facthunter]

Not for me, Jim. they tried to build a safe plane but I'm totally conventional for preference. I like a sturdy 3 axis with plenty of control authority, and I'm prepared to take responsibility for operating it safely. I think pilots should be taught how to fly planes. They aren't on rails, and we have to accept that we are somewhat at the mercy of the air and it's vagaries. We are not all the same in our wants, and the perfect plane will never be built. I like to think I can adapt to different ones and so far it hasn't proven painful. Nev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I would love an Ercoupe, looked at them all at Oshkosh. Great little innovative aircraft.

 

 

[facthunter]

No doubt they are nice, well made and collectible as well. Don't let my opinion be anything but what it is. The Piper Tripacer has spring connected controls (rudder aileron) I like control and feel, but I still fly planes with hydraulic and electric controls. Big ones you have no option, and you adapt.. Nev

 

 

[Contact Flying]

The Tri-Pacer has always been a good value in mountain airplane. Not quite a C-182, but close and half the price. I had three at different times and a Colt.

 

 

[facthunter]

It didn't like the heat here. Tough enough and a few get converted to Pacers (T/W). Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

I had to google to find the context of that extract.I hesitate to nitpick Rich Stowell, BUT he is describing an exercise rolling between 30 degrees bank each way while keeping the nose on a point on the horizon as coordinated flight.

Had to wait until I got home to flick through my copy of the book - that extract was a general comment - he then went on to explain how the lag may be demonstrated with that 30 deg bank exercise.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Nev yes i was joking when i yawned....in reference to the title...

 

My take on life is im gunna be dead a hell of a long time, so when i can enjoy this one and have a luagh joke or happy time i will.....

 

Motto. - your not dead yet....smile, laugh and enjoy

 

 

[facthunter]

It's not a dress rehearsal. This is IT... Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

Contact, I wish you had been around a few years ago to participate in a discussion on the instructors forum here. I got beaten up severely for making comments consistent with yours.....

I meant to state: only partly consistent - unable to correct the text now that I am home from hols and reading all of this on something bigger than my iPhone. My style is more like that of http://www.dylanaviation.com/ I like his philosophy: "To be a flyer, students need to master only two skills: do not cause the airplane to stall and control yaw. Specifically pilots should know how to turn an airplane. Until the FAA requires CFIs to teach and pilots to master and demonstrate that skill, I fear the bad safety record will continue."Jim of Contact Flying, by contrast, seems to be more like http://billquirkbooks.com/blog/2014/06/30/landing-insights/ who is in Alaska and somewhat critical of the technique by Mountain/Canyon Flying in Idaho - I lived in Wyoming for some years and did some backcountry flying in a Husky in Idaho etc. I'm certainly not of the "elite Alaskan pilot’s aviation sphere".

 

 

[facthunter]

DJP ,like your new avatar but I'm biased. Rudder can increase your roll rate quite a bit. Has anyone got experience of it (without flick rolling it) Nev

 

 

[Soleair]

Flapperons introduce special handling issues too

Would you mind elaborating on that Nev? My MiniMax has flaperons but I have never flown with them. The wings are very stiff, if that helps?

 

Thanks

 

Bruce

 

 

[facthunter]

Wing twist is never good as you can get aileron reversal effects. Your strut layout effectively rules out wing twist. Flapperons are good for low speed achievement but introduce more adverse yaw because you lose differential aileron effect. (More UP than down). You end up with down and more down, which then requires stronger rudder inputs and care with control, which is OK if you manage it well. You have a large rudder. Helpful. Long fuselage is too, which you don't have.. Nev

 

 

[Contact Flying]

I sprayed with one notch flapperons all the time in my Callair A9-B. It had the same wing area as a Pawnee but the wing wasn't as efficient . With one notch, it handled one hundred and twenty gallons at 4,000' better on hot days when the DA was much higher. Both the Callair A9 (no flaps) and the A9-B were the best handling spray planes I ever flew. I think ribs in all the control surfaces helped.

 

 

[Soleair]

Thankyou. Though I'm not clear why flaperons necessarily introduce more adverse yaw, if the control geometry is the same as for ailerons. Which it will be, as the flaperons are simply extended ailerons. Thus although more area, there is the same differential as the flaperons move.

 

Or am I missing something? (I usually do).

 

Bruce

 

 

[djpacro]

No adverse yaw with the Airtourer and its flaperons.

 

I haven't flown a Callair - I bet that Herb Andersen would appreciate Contact Flying's feedback.

 

My last Pitts was an early model S-2A with differential frise ailerons - "spades" added more recently and it feels and rolls as good as many Pitts.

 

 

[facthunter]

Frise cancels out the adverse yaw, by adding compensating drag. If you have heaps of power it's not a problem. I can't see how differential ailerons work well inverted . The Frise ailerons affects spin entry on the Citabria and anything similar. Out of spin aileron is a quicker way of getting into the spin. It's an old Chipmunk habit that dies hard. If you didn't do it the plane would rattle and shake for about 3 turns losing far too much height for demonstration and training purposes..Nev

 

 

[2tonne]

Rob Knight's article was included in the latest Sport Pilot. An interesting read and explains the use of rudder on final that I was taught in the J160. At the time it was explained to me that use of rudder was to avoid adverse yaw, but the article explains it more accurately as controlling yaw that you encounter on final due to gusts and turbulence.

 

I like the quote: "the driver will use the ailerons to level the wings"

 

 

[Pearo]

If we just push a rudder and then release, static and reactive, the wing opposite the rudder pushed will speed up in the yaw and rise a bit.

Just like to point out that this is a common fallacy. Its actually dihedral that is mostly responsible for yaw induced roll in GA aircraft. The increase in speed of the outside wing is negligible, especially in most smaller aircraft..

 

 

[facthunter]

Dihedral and sweepback the main cause. making one wing produce more lift than the other by the way it presents to the airflow. Nev

 

 

[Garfly]

Few subjects in the art of flying aeroplanes seem as likely to set expert against expert as the use of rudder.

 

In the attached pdf. "Using the Rudder" local aviation guru John Laming (http://airfactsjournal.com/author/johnlaming/) is exercised by an article on the subject in Aviation Safety Magazine.

 

Proper Rudder Use - Aviation Safety Article.pdf

 

Using The Rudder - Aviation Safety Article.pdf

 

Proper Rudder Use - Aviation Safety Article.pdf

 

Using The Rudder - Aviation Safety Article.pdf

 

Proper Rudder Use - Aviation Safety Article.pdf

Using The Rudder - Aviation Safety Article.pdf

[facthunter]

Despite what experts say, the rudder keeps on doing what it does. Most of the argument is about the finer points of the effects. You can cause a deliberate skid/slip or balance the thing with the ball in the centre. Push the ball with the pedal on the side the ball is off centre to. This might help in a steep turn. You need rudder when rolling into or out of a turn, because that's when you have a lot of aileron applied. In a continuous turn you should need very little aileron, (or rudder). Your rudder is a balance control. If you pull "G" with the ball out of centre the plane may flick roll. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

From NASA Report CR-1975, Riding and Handling Qualities of Light Aircraft:

 

"The change in rolling moment due to variation in yawing velocity ... wing provides the major contribution ... left wing moves faster than the right wing, producing more lift ... consequently ... rolling moment ..."

 

whereas

 

"the change in rolling moment .. caused by variation in sideslip angle ... is the result of wing dihedral effect and the moment resulting from the vertical tail center of pressure located above the equilibrium x-axis ..."

 

Apply rudder and you get both a yawing velocity and a sideslip (or skid).

 

The report quantifies each effect for a Cessna 182 as an example.