Share/Syndicate ex-Camden

[Ozfergie]

I am getting to close to the first RPL qualification hurdle and am keen to explore syndicate options - if anyone knows anyone else who is interested (ex-Camden), can you let me know?

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Hi Guys

 

I am new to this forum and currently doing solos and waiting to give my RAA Pilot Certificate exam. Very soon I am looking into buying my own Jabiru J430 / J400. Given that I would like to fly a couple of hours every week or every other week, I can not bring myself to justify the cost of owning an aircraft and maintaining it for purely recreational purpose, with so little expected flying. Hence I am looking to form a syndicate in the Wollongong - Wedderburn area.

 

It goes like this -

 

(1) We have a share each with minimum 2 and maximum 3 share holders

 

(2) Each of us puts down say approx. $15,000 for a second hand Jabiru 430 costing about $45,000

 

(3) For each hour of flying logged into the logbook we put down about $30 - $50 per hour towards hull insurance, general maintenance and engine overhaul etc.

 

(4) Once you have finished using the aircraft and put it back into the hanagar, make sure you top up the fuel to full tank for the next person

 

(5) We take turns flying the aircraft so that everyone gets a fair go

 

(6) You can sell the share in it as and when you like, but first preference goes to the syndicate members

 

(7) On sale of your share you get back your share of whatever little bit is left into the kitty after deducting any outstanding costs

 

Any suggestions from anyone are most welcome :-)

 

 

[rhysmcc]

What's the useable load with full tanks? Might effect number #4 and I'd reconsider #7, kitty should be for paying the bills and would form part of the sale.

 

Best of luck

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Usable load I believe is 260 kgs when RA registered, but not looked into the details. 2 adult passengers up to 90 kgs each plus 5hr fuel as I have been told.

 

#4 is to make sure that when you use the aircraft from full fuel, to top it up back to where it was. alternately keep a more precise log of how much fuel you have used and to top up the amount after your usage. Another option is to fill up only as much as you need each time you fly and leave an hours worth in the tank. It is negotiable depending upon majority. 2 votes vs 1.

 

#7 is to pay for all the cost involved as stated in #3; and make sure everything including any pending work is sorted at the time of the sale; and before returning any surplus back to the retiring member

 

 

[Ayecapt]

Hi GuysI am new to this forum and currently doing solos and waiting to give my RAA Pilot Certificate exam. Very soon I am looking into buying my own Jabiru J430 / J400. Given that I would like to fly a couple of hours every week or every other week, I can not bring myself to justify the cost of owning an aircraft and maintaining it for purely recreational purpose, with so little expected flying. Hence I am looking to form a syndicate in the Wollongong - Wedderburn area.

 

It goes like this -

 

(1) We have a share each with minimum 2 and maximum 3 share holders

 

(2) Each of us puts down say approx. $15,000 for a second hand Jabiru 430 costing about $45,000

 

(3) For each hour of flying logged into the logbook we put down about $30 - $50 per hour towards hull insurance, general maintenance and engine overhaul etc.

 

(4) Once you have finished using the aircraft and put it back into the hanagar, make sure you top up the fuel to full tank for the next person

 

(5) We take turns flying the aircraft so that everyone gets a fair go

 

(6) You can sell the share in it as and when you like, but first preference goes to the syndicate members

 

(7) On sale of your share you get back your share of whatever little bit is left into the kitty after deducting any outstanding costs

 

Any suggestions from anyone are most welcome :-)

Hi syndicates are very common and there are many sets of rules already available if you look around. But your costing of 30 to 50 an hour is way too low. Most syndicates will charge $70 to $110 per hour wet and on top of this there is a monthly fee for hangar and insurance . Aviation is not cheap ever. And limiting your syndicate to 2 or 3 increases your individual costs. Another point to remember is that most people fly less than they really would like to. A syndicate aircraft that does a hundred hours a year is doing well in my experience. Good luck its a great hobby ,sport or pastime and i think a syndicate can be a great way to go if all members are sensible !

Brian

 

 

[Ozfergie]

Hello Anjum,

 

As you can see from my previous post, I have been looking for interest in a syndicate around Camden for about six months with no luck.

 

So, I would be prepared to look at one based in Woolongong (you have to buy a membership to use Wedderburn, right?).

 

However, I would need to see a very persuasive argument for a J400/J430 - especially as you say that you would probably only take one passenger.

 

There are some great low hour 170's and 230's around at the moment for $45k-$50k which, I would have thought, represent better value and are a better "fit for purpose".

 

I have draft syndicate agreements plus several spreadsheets (some shared by other generous members here) - and based on extensive research and Camden area pricing you will be looking at around $60-70 per hour for operating costs excluding fuel based on 6-7 hours use per. week. This includes provision for engine and prop replacement.

 

I am not familiar with Wollongong landing or parking/hangar fees.

 

I would be more than happy to talk more here - or let me know if you want my mobile to talk in person.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Thanks for your reply Ozfergie. I was looking at Wedderburn actually. Jabiru 430 is a 4 seater when GA registered. I have seen an ad which is for 45k and registered with RA as J230 with back seats removed. In case in future we decided to go RPL CASA and register it with CASA as 4 seater then we can take 2 or more passengers. (Just thinking about future proofing our investment, thats all.)

 

My instructor based in Wedderburn also does a lot of maintenance work at Wedderburn for members.

 

 

[Ayecapt]

Theres a couple of nice shares going in tecnam sierras at Cessnock right at the end of the freeway that goes from Hornsby to Brankston. ( just for your info )

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Can you post the link please Ayecapt, thanks.

 

Wedderburn hangarage is much more reasonable, less busy, less formal and RA maintenance through my instructor would be very reasonable.

 

 

[Ozfergie]

Theres a couple of nice shares going in tecnam sierras at Cessnock right at the end of the freeway that goes from Hornsby to Brankston. ( just for your info )

Certainly interested, Ayecapt - we spent the four days up there recently - I live close to the Hornsby end of the Fwy - can you point me toward more info?

 

 

[Ozfergie]

Thanks for your reply Ozfergie. I was looking at Wedderburn actually. Jabiru 430 is a 4 seater when GA registered. I have seen an ad which is for 45k and registered with RA as J230 with back seats removed. In case in future we decided to go RPL CASA and register it with CASA as 4 seater then we can take 2 or more passengers. (Just thinking about future proofing our investment, thats all.)My instructor based in Wedderburn also does a lot of maintenance work at Wedderburn for members.

Ok - then I would certainly be interested in talking further about the opportunity.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Can you send me your email address and i will email you my contact number.

 

 

[Ayecapt]

The first one is the in my pic its ra aus reg but was Ga so it has full panel . Its a 5 way synd ( and it still sits around most of the time does about 50 hrs per year.)

 

Its less than $16k. 700 hrs TBO.

 

The other is a LSA version only a short time till TBO 3 way share around $ 23k its white and well cared for in good nick. Sits around ALL THE TIME.

 

If you want more details we would be better to communicate off the forum. These are not realy for specific deals.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Just checked Cessnock. Not practical for me as it is way out. Looking for something more local around Wedderburn.

 

 

[Ayecapt]

Thats fine good luck with the search

 

 

[UltraFlash]

Thanks for your reply Ozfergie. I was looking at Wedderburn actually. Jabiru 430 is a 4 seater when GA registered. I have seen an ad which is for 45k and registered with RA as J230 with back seats removed. In case in future we decided to go RPL CASA and register it with CASA as 4 seater then we can take 2 or more passengers. (Just thinking about future proofing our investment, thats all.)My instructor based in Wedderburn also does a lot of maintenance work at Wedderburn for members.

Issue with this aircraft is you need to go through the experimental registration process again as it was originally a kit built J430.

 

I had considered this same aircraft but looking into the requirements to get it back onto the CASA register, it's not so simple. Once going through the kit built requirements, you must do all the test flying process again.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Ok. If that's a major hurdle then let me know if you have any other in mind. There is another one j400 in lake entrance (vic). The owner is willing to sell it for 37k. Solid lifters and through bolt upgrade, but vh reg. Will need an rpl to fly that one. Or need to convert it to RA.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

One major cost factor is the Jabiru engine. I was speaking to my instructor who is also a maintenance engineer for RA registered planes (not LAME) and currently building a new kit plane. His experience with hydraulic lifters had not been very promising. He has solid lifters in all his training Jabirus. He has advised to swap the Jabiru engines for Camit engines where possible or at least ensure they have solid lifters. Showed me another Jabiru which had quit twice due to the hydraulic lifters. Enough reason to put me off hydraulic lifters. I am sure others would have had a more positive experience.

 

The 1st thing to do in my case would be to swap the engines to Camit on the Jab 230/430. This would add about 19k to the cost. Good option if cost is shared between 3 share holders. This way we have the most reliable airframe with the most reliable engine one can get at 22k/share.

 

My training school hires out Jabs at $150/hr wet. I was wondering if it is more feasible to hire rather than buy at this stage?

 

 

[Ayecapt]

Try to remember that not all things are equal in this world . Ie not all hyd lifters are bad just some types.

 

Hire or buy .." Depends on how many hours you will actually get in over a year. Not what you want to do but what you will do.

 

And ownership has benifits as well as drawbacks. Once again its a balance.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Planning to do about 50 hrs / yr on an average. May be more, may be less?! If own plane, then may be I will fly more often.

 

 

[johnm]

spoke to a bloke the other day and out of the 12 ! syndicate members - only 6 flew it (the rest didn't fly it)

 

..................... syndicate is potentially a good idea (me thinks)

 

 

[Ayecapt]

2k for insurance 200 per month hangar costs 70 per hour to cover basic maintenance and fuel , theres $8k gone

 

Then theres extras such as breakdown repairs , ad ' to perform etc you will need to allow $10 k per anum.

 

Now this might be worst case but thats how you plan it.

 

Works out @ $200 per hour but if you fly more it gets cheaper per hour. Thats why syndicates with the right people in them work so well.

 

My cost per year for 50 hours using the same numbers is... No more than $4k per year. Or $80 per hour in a 5 way syndicate.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

Thanks Ayecapt for the figures. Makes a lot of sense. And then you have to factor in the cost of buying a share and time commitments to make sure that the aircraft is kept well maintained. Unless you are a minimum 3 people in a syndicate, given the fixed charges + unexpected breakdown costs if any, it would be more practical to hire at $150/hr wet, rather than buy a share. I guess it works best with more members (minimum 3) and if you are doing more flying hours.

 

I really wish I could join your syndicate but its too far from Wollongong. May be once Ozfergie and I get more like minded people we could set up something in the Camden / Wedderburn region. In fact, I would even consider getting a RPL from CASA if there was more opportunity to fly in a GA syndicate with a RPL.

 

 

[kasper]

And do not forget to value in the 'cost' of tying up $15k in the depreciating asset that is an aircraft syndicate share ... at best it keeps its nominal value but it 'costs' you what you could have invested it on ... in the bank 1-2%, off your mortgage 4-6% in a super fund 7-10% ... if you are looking at flying 75 hours a year that $15k out of your super 'costs' you $15-20 per hour of flight.

 

As others have said - direct operating costs are often underestimated and actual hours per year overestimated. When running a syndicate in the UK on a 912 raven I could do all the maintenance at materials costs and had a good rate on hangarage because I did work on the owners aircraft as well at materials costs and we had low insurance due to high time on type for all members AND even THEN we directly spent the best part of $80/hr running 200hrs per year on the airframe.

 

Syndicates work best IMHO when the member numbers are reasonably low and they all know each other ... once the member numbers get higher or people do not know each other the aircraft gets treated like a rental - people do not care or look after it and you find the costs of maintenance go up faster than you expect and the aircraft gets tatty quicker than you thought possible.

 

 

[anjum_jabiru]

By the way, I was speaking to another friend of mine who I got interested into flying. He would like to buy a brand new Jabiru 430 along with his other mates and myself if he decides to go ahead with the training. Plan to take him up in a few weeks once I get my license and passenger rating (to keep his interest up :)

 

Any advice on risks / benefits of buying a brand new Jabiru 430 with brand new Jabiru engine versus 2nd hand Jabiru 430 for nearly half the price and putting in a brand new engine of your choice (CAMiT) in the 2nd hand Jabiru 430 (still works out to 70% of the price)?