matt walsh Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Hi all, I am contemplating the use of an all metal Japanese made rotary hand drum pump for filling the wing tanks as an alternative to pouring from elevated 20 litre containers. The MoGas would still be discharged into a "Mr Funnel" and then into the wing tanks of my Gazelle. The hand pump would be ground earth and all fuel lines would be fuel grade quality rubber Are there any specific and unsolvable safety issues that I must consider? Has anyone used a hand pump satisfactorily? Has any one devised an easier method for refueling than standing up a ladder with a heavy container then delicately balancing the container as the fuel is tipped into the funnel??? I will appreciate any comment, knowledge and experience on this matter. Thank Matt Walsh
rankamateur Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Some use 4psi air pressure in the drum and no pump. You can mount a 10um filter directly on a McNaught rotary pump if you want to get away from the static in a Mr Funnel. 1 1
SDQDI Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I guess a hand pump will limit you to fuelling with a friend or having more spills. If you are using a hand pump why not invest in a decent in line filter and do away with the filter funnel? Just saw ranks suggestions. 1
Camel Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I'm one of those who use to pour jerry cans into mr Funnell, I now put jerry can on towel use ball siphon hose into Funnell but can won't fully empty until I hold it up when level is low, I have an spare electric pump and intend to try set it up with power from ride on mower, method of a drum and pump is fine but, filling the drum is a problem, service station require the drum to be on the ground, I don't know if they accept a wire grounding, when you get the drum to plane what do you do, can't refuel in hangar, do you keep drum outside or leave in trailer, I find the drum a little problematic. A dedicated fuel trailer would be fine but a little costly.
Guest ozzie Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Be careful with the hose make sure it is conductive so as to be able to earth thru the nozzle and pump.
SDQDI Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I'm one of those who use to pour jerry cans into mr Funnell, I now put jerry can on towel use ball siphon hose into Funnell but can won't fully empty until I hold it up when level is low, I have an spare electric pump and intend to try set it up with power from ride on mower, method of a drum and pump is fine but, filling the drum is a problem, service station require the drum to be on the ground, I don't know if they accept a wire grounding, when you get the drum to plane what do you do, can't refuel in hangar, do you keep drum outside or leave in trailer, I find the drum a little problematic. A dedicated fuel trailer would be fine but a little costly. I've only been knocked back from filling 20litre jerry cans in the back of a ute never a 200litre. But I know some servos are pretty solid on that rule but if you have a choice of a few shop around and don't ask, have the lid already off and just pull up and start filling:wink:. The trouble is one of the strictest servos I know was in a town where it was the only option:thumb down: . I use a 150 litre boat tank in a home built frame with a 12v pump with a good filter when I am at home and when away it is jerry cans and jiggle syphon hoses (have misplaced my mister funnel so will have to get another)
Guest ozzie Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Camel , refueling in the hanger is a no no. bunch a penalty points there. Take aircraft outside observe the distances required from buildings, open windows etc. Service station, I have refilled a few 200lt drums sitting in a trailer never had a problem with anyone questioning it. i do make sure the nozzle is in contact with the drum when filling. no harm in using a jumper lead from drum to bowser or some other ground point. When refueling a drum at an airport facility i use the bonding wire as per refueling aircraft including the bonding wire on the nozzle. Beware of anything that can generate static. Tray liners in utes, nylon rags/clothes etc.
Camel Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Camel ,refueling in the hanger is a no no. bunch a penalty points there. Take aircraft outside observe the distances required from buildings, open windows etc. Service station, I have refilled a few 200lt drums sitting in a trailer never had a problem with anyone questioning it. i do make sure the nozzle is in contact with the drum when filling. no harm in using a jumper lead from drum to bowser or some other ground point. When refueling a drum at an airport facility i use the bonding wire as per refueling aircraft including the bonding wire on the nozzle. Beware of anything that can generate static. Tray liners in utes, nylon rags/clothes etc. Read what I said again, and don't misquote me ! I know the rules very well thankyou ! 1
skeptic36 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I bought one of these :http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DURAMAX-53ltr-Portable-Fuel-Container-flo-n-go-Jerry-Can-NEW-/111719559644?hash=item1a030131dc:m:mBdB1gnZVG4fqmvuTE6LEjA I have a boat winch and pulley set up in my hangar, which I use to winch it up high. It has a convenient bolt in the centre holding the hose hangar on which I am able to connect my earth wire to. I also use a hanging scale so that I can accurately check fuel burn. Another handy thing I have found, is it lays horizontal for filling which is ideal for draining stale fuel from the aircraft. Before you burn me at the stake the hangar is my own, and it only contains my aircraft
matt walsh Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 Thanks everyone for your comments. Just to clarify, I intend to sit the rotary pump with its metal inlet tube, directly into the usual 20 litre red plastic approved fuel safe container, with a rubber hose from outlet side discharging into Mr Funnel into the fuel tank. The suggestion of an inline filter is helpful and I assume the filter will be on the inlet side of the pump ie on the end of the inlet tube in at the bottom of the container and so the outlet hose could discharge directly into the plane's tank. I've also considered using a "Facet" 12v electric pump, again pumping from my 20 litre red fuel containers into the tanks via inline filter or into Mr Funnel. Does anyone know the fuel flow rate or had experience doing similar?? SDQDI, regarding your boat tank and 12v pump refueling set up, can you describe the 12v pump please. brand flow rate etc. How long to empty a 20 lite container approx? Again thanks for all advice, much appreciated. Matt Walsh.
SDQDI Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Thanks everyone for your comments. Just to clarify, I intend to sit the rotary pump with its metal inlet tube, directly into the usual 20 litre red plastic approved fuel safe container, with a rubber hose from outlet side discharging into Mr Funnel into the fuel tank. The suggestion of an inline filter is helpful and I assume the filter will be on the inlet side of the pump ie on the end of the inlet tube in at the bottom of the container and so the outlet hose could discharge directly into the plane's tank.I've also considered using a "Facet" 12v electric pump, again pumping from my 20 litre red fuel containers into the tanks via inline filter or into Mr Funnel. Does anyone know the fuel flow rate or had experience doing similar?? SDQDI, regarding your boat tank and 12v pump refueling set up, can you describe the 12v pump please. brand flow rate etc. How long to empty a 20 lite container approx? Again thanks for all advice, much appreciated. Matt Walsh. I'd have the filter on the outlet side of the pump as it would be easier to plumb into the hose there and it won't cause any hassles with losing prime (not that there should be any holes but it doesn't take much of a leak to lose suction.) Matt I will take some pictures tomorrow of my setup, I can't remember the brand off the top of my head but it was an expensive pump and probably over the top unless you were going to use a 200 litre drum and move a lot of fuel. It only takes me a couple of minutes to fuel my plane (120 litres) but I will check on the pump tomorrow for a flow rate, it is a bit over the top for what's needed though. I reckon a good facet pump set up properly could make an ideal jerry can size transfer pump and probably wouldn't be too different to a syphon hose time wise especially if you could source a larger diameter one.
Guest ozzie Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Read what I said again, and don't misquote me ! I know the rules very well thankyou ! Sorry cleaned my glasses.
Kyle Communications Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The pump needs to be a magnetic style impeller. There are plenty around on ebay for diesel but not petrol. The petrol ones are expensive. 1
Kyle Communications Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I have been thinking of making a fuel rig. Go-Fly have one but with a mechanical pump. Its a 200 litre drum which they fill by hand from 20 litre containers as all the garages around here wont let you fill a 200 litre drum. Its just a 200 drum on a metal frame with wheels and a stair set at the side..its pretty cool really and easy to use. Would only take a day or two to weld one up
Kyle Communications Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 This is nice..but expensive http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-Gasoline-Petrol-Fuel-Transfer-Pump-Fuel-Hose-Nozzle-/181671995660?hash=item2a4c7ea90c:g:xgIAAOSwFnFWChA2
Ada Elle Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Owning the hangar and all the planes in it is not an excuse under CAO 20.4, although whether 20.4 applies to ALAs (as opposed to ADs) is unclear. SRFC uses a hand rotary pump for mogas in drums. I don't remember how many litres in the drums.
SDQDI Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Owning the hangar and all the planes in it is not an excuse under CAO 20.4, although whether 20.4 applies to ALAs (as opposed to ADs) is unclear.SRFC uses a hand rotary pump for mogas in drums. I don't remember how many litres in the drums. CAO 20.4 seems to only talk about oxygen and protective breathing equipment? I think it is actually CAO 20.9 but not 100% sure Kyle that pump looks nearly identical to mine except mine is red and a different brand, when I bought it I was told there were very few if any others that were approved for unleaded use. 1
crashley Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I use a rotary pump with a filter on the outlet it is mounted on a super cheap type trolley which holds three plastic 20 litre drums I brought 1 " hose with a copper trace for earthing I also earth the trolley and pump frame to the plane exhaust I brought the pump and filter from the local truck supplies the filter has a 1" inlet and outlet and is commonly used on farm diesel tanks and the hose was sourced from www.hosesonline.com.au they will supply short lengths of proper fuel hose at good prices
Marty_d Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 This is nice..but expensivehttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-Gasoline-Petrol-Fuel-Transfer-Pump-Fuel-Hose-Nozzle-/181671995660?hash=item2a4c7ea90c:g:xgIAAOSwFnFWChA2 Yeah, but with fuel around $1.50 a litre, you only have to siphon off 7 or 8 cars and it pays for itself. 2
Ada Elle Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 yes, it's 20.9. https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011C00687 (I don't know why I wrote 20.4.)
rhtrudder Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 We use 12 volt pumps only for diesel on farm , pretty sure you can't pump petrol with them, one stray spark and you may be trying out your insurance , we have a underground 1000 liter tank for petrol that we charge with compressed air, not sure whether it introduces moisture in the tank so have a water trap type glass filter in the line , seems to work OK , been using it for about 4 years
apm Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Illegal to fill 200 l drums, $5000 fine for you, $25000 for petrol station, better to go to bulk depot, they will exchange empty drum for full one, or bring it to you. To transfer to plane, low pressure air is your friend and really cheap, just look at how a garden weed sprayer works, can be scaled up to work with any container with a few fittings through a bung same thread as your container and an air source at max 4-5 psi. Must be regulated air if powered compressor is used. My setup will transfer fuel fast and no fuss or remove fuel using venturi to create vacuum in drum if over mtow. For small containers like 20l jerries, a few pumps from an airmattress type pump would make ideal air supply, just make sure a tap is on end of hose to control fuel flow into Mr funnel, probably could be made light enough to take touring also. Andrew 2 2
Kyle Communications Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 APM you want to post some photos of the system please?
matt walsh Posted October 19, 2015 Author Posted October 19, 2015 Hi all, SDQDI: thanks for offering to photograph and detail your pump type and I look forward to hearing from you. Kyle: nice pump and would work a dream. Out of my budget!!! Note your comment on pump type. I understand the Facet brand 12v pump is a magnetic impeller, fully sealed unit. Crashley: you mentioned that your pump is a type "commonly used on farm diesel tanks". Was your pump sold as being suitable for petrol or have you used a diesel pump with success. There are heaps of diesel transfer pumps around but less petrol suitable ones, so can you safely use a diesel transfer pump for MoGas?? Skeptic36: Thanks for the lead. I've emailed the Ecan Man for details of his pump ie max lift capability, hand pumps to transfer 20 litres etc. APM: sounds great, very practical also. With the typical 20 litre red fuel container, I could have compressed air entering via one cap and fuel out via the other. I would have a fuel approved hose with end filter, reaching down to near bottom of container then out through other cap and up to wing tank. If decent inlet filter then no need for Mr Funnel and hose directly into tank. Using brass fittings through the caps and caps screwed tight should establish the sealed system. A source of compressed air could even be a small 12v auto compressor used for inflating flat tyres or camping beds. Or just use a hand pump. APM, I'd really appreciate photos etc of your set up. So again thanks to my aviator community. Lots of clever pilots out there!!
old man emu Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Wonder how you can get 4 psi air pressure into a fuel container? It's simple. Watch this video, and then adapt the process to the container you have. If you are filling from a 200 litre drum, put the valve in the small bung. Four (4) psi is not much pressure, so you can pressurise your container with a car tyre pump (foot or hand operated), or a push bike tyre pump. You've probably got one of those kicking around the hangar. The push bike pump wold be a good addition to your on-board tool kit so you could inflate your landing gear tyres if needed. The beauty of this is that the pressurizing system is not dependent on electricity for power, so it's fire safe. However - always be wary of static electricity and ground the whole system. 1. Pump to earthing point 2. Drum to earthing point 3. Airplane to earthing point Some car speaker cable makes good, light-weight earthing cable, and one of your tie-down pegs connects the whole shebang to Mother Earth. OME
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